Supercharger Questions

88workcar · 12-23-2002, 07:42 AM

I just traded my Banshee for a 9 pound powerdyne. It came with 30# injectors. I have a set of 24#. Which one will be better? The guy I got it from says that his plug were black all the time. It is only three weeks used. He blew his motor and has been sitting for over a year. It came with a FMU, a pro-M 77 mass air, 30#ers, pullys brackets, and some other stuff. Also at 9lbs where should my timing be set at for starters? I also plan to make an air to water after cooler with an igloo in the car. I have the luxury of alum welding at my disposal.

Hozer 88GTConv · 12-23-2002, 10:37 AM

The reason why his plugs were black is because an FMU typically runs richer to ensure no detonation occurs.

I know some FMU's typically keep the mixture all the way down to 12 : 1 . So at idle, which is what you are at most of the time, you just dump fuel.

That is why I opted for the chip option in lieu of the FMU. Chips are more expensive, but their curves are matched for your exact combo. So you can't just slap stuff on and off with a chip, because you could suffer some issues.

Just to compare, I run 42# injectors with a chip and a 70mm tb and a 90mm Maf. I would definitely run at least 30# injectors if you have some decent aftermarket heads. I just saw that you have some E7's and a E-cam. That big overlap will cause you to run rich anyway.

Detonation = Bad

Stang_Crazy · 12-23-2002, 11:55 AM

DITCH the FMU. They are nothing but garbage. Without a FMU, you might want to go with a little bigger injector (36# maybe) and a larger volume fuel pump (255 lph). As far as timing, try setting it at 8* and see if there is any detonation. If you're ok, keep advancing it one degree at a time and checking for pings.

SaleenGTS · 12-23-2002, 11:40 PM

He's right...FMU's are garbage....just a vay to get around upgrading injectors.....they are a hassle too...you want mine? he he j/k

88workcar · 12-24-2002, 03:08 AM

What about a btm?

12-24-2002, 06:19 AM

Quote:

What about a btm?

BTM(boost timing master) basically lets you dial away detonation by retarding the timing in relation to the boost pressure that you run

Hozer 88GTConv · 12-24-2002, 09:17 AM

My Vortech SQ came with a MSD BTM.
It is a necessity to pull timing off as boost goes up.

88workcar · 12-24-2002, 03:20 PM

I know what it does, I was wondering if it is the right thing to go with? Also, what size injectors normally come with a powerdyne 9lb set up? I am thinking rather than get the automatic, I should use the money to perfect the charger?

SaleenGTS · 12-24-2002, 11:24 PM

Definately get it....it will allow you to run higher timing at Idle for better response.

The 9# kit comes with 30#ers. If you have a stock motor, that is fine.....when you swap heads, cam and intake you will prolly need 42's. If you are going to dump money into a blower get a SQ or ATI.

Hozer 88GTConv · 12-25-2002, 09:32 AM

I can't stress it enough, you really should look into a chip too.

Once you go with a blower, you can kiss off any chance of keeping your idle perfect and your throttle response smooth without a chip over the lifespan of your blower.

Having a custom chip burned to your combo's specs will allow the EEC-IV to do everything it can.

I really don't know why Vortech sends FMU's with their kits. They recommend chips in their own literature.

I had two seperate dyno sessions to ensure that my fuel and timing curves were exactly where they needed to be for the best response. It is without a doubt, the best way to go.

I also recommend the Vortech SQ for kit completeness and streetability.

Old Guy with 87 GT · 12-25-2002, 10:50 AM

88 workcar
i'm curios....are you staying with speed density, if you are do you foresee any complications with running a blower and speed density

i'm curios cause i still run speed density on mine ,i was also going to ask you about that e- cam your running and if you have any tuning issues ......i was debating dropping an e-cam in mine
.
....... i don't want to get off topic ,but your like the speed density guru ,
.......when i get to time i'll start a thread to get some opinions on the combo i'm hoping to run

Stang_Crazy · 12-25-2002, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hozer 88GTConv

Once you go with a blower, you can kiss off any chance of keeping your idle perfect and your throttle response smooth without a chip over the lifespan of your blower.

A chip is not necessary in order to attain good idle and driveability. Granted, with a chip your tune will be sharper...I don't have a chip and my car idles and runs just like it did before the blower.

Hozer 88GTConv · 12-25-2002, 08:15 PM

a chip will give you the benefit of matching fuel and timing curves exactly to your combo.

Stang Crazy is, imo, one of the few who have attained a solid tune w/o the aid of a chip. I promise you he is in the minority.

Is it possible w/o a chip? Sure. But your odds of success (that being a well-mannered street-strip machine) go way off the chart with a sound chip and takes a lot of guess work out of your tune.

I also believe that a chip with a power adder gives you the best cost-benefit you could ask for in this crazy hobby for the insane.

Chris_H · 12-25-2002, 11:39 PM

I have to admit I am in the minority too like Stang_crazy. I also run the Novi 1000 on my car, and it idle's as good as it did the day before I put the blower on it. I don't have a chip in it either. I have a friend who is a Diablo dealer, but we really don;t have a dyno to tune the car in with.

Chris

Hozer 88GTConv · 12-26-2002, 10:29 AM

How much boost are you putting out?

I am curious to see if you are runninig just 5-6 lbs which is much easier on your components and thus easier to tune or if you are in the neighborhood of 8 + pounds.

Are you running with the Fuel unit that came with the Novi 1000 kit? And are you utilizing a bypass valve?

Like I said, I am just curious. It's not that often that you have many genuine supercharged guys talking on the same thread. Most of the time it seems that guys are passing heresay from "my friends car had this..."

stangsrule · 12-26-2002, 03:46 PM

Or you can go one better than a chip and get a tuning device like a TwEECer, PMS or the like and then you aren't stuck with whatever program(s) they burn you... You can tune and tweak to your heart's content. Some of them, like the TwEECer RT even do data logging!!! Now that's some pretty cool stuff! Use it along with a DYI wideband and you don't even need a dyno except for bragging rights!

With a good tuning device and a wideband O2 you are the tuning master/chip burner/dyno shop!

There are several good tuning devices out there but my vote is for the TwEECer RT at www.TwEECer.com And the owner of the company that makes it (Slower Traffic Keep Right) Mike Glover is hella cool! I had my mind made up to go with the PMS from Anderson Ford Motorsports but the TwEECer does more and is about half the price. I think it is at least worth looking into. Good luck with whatever you decide.

Hozer 88GTConv · 12-26-2002, 04:12 PM

Tweecer Wideband O2's...are they compatible with stock O2 mounts?

Chris_H · 12-26-2002, 05:48 PM

Hozer, I have have to admit that with the elevation I am running at (3900ft) I am only seeing about 4.5 pounds of boost at the most. This thin air sucks for making power or boost. I am running the FMU that came with the kit, without a bypass valve. I plan on getting a bypass valve one of these days, but I figure at 4 pounds, its not big hurry. I've also considered going down to a 10:1 disc for the FMU. I am running way too rich on the top end. I have seen up to about 90lbs of fuel pressure at about 5800 rpm. I don't care to see it that high, but bigger injectors don;t make too much sense to me right now since I am still running on stock heads/cam/intake.
I am always looking for suggestions from those who know more than I do about blowers. I am still new to all of this.

Chris

Hozer 88GTConv · 12-26-2002, 08:38 PM

so many people are so full of crap, especially when it comes to blowers.
To me, they are a real challenge but they are worth it. I hope you have good luck. I have heard and read that experimenting with different diaphragm sizes could help you get the results you are looking for.

stangsrule · 12-26-2002, 10:36 PM

Hozer, just to make sure we are clear on this, Tweecer does not make their own wideband, but there are several sources for buying an already built one and also a couple of places where you can buy the parts and plans to build your own. Anderson Ford Motorsports now has one they sell... Anyway, that said I would think ( I haven't gotten my own wideband yet but it is near the top of my list) the best thing would be to leave your O2's in their stock location and mount a new bung to install your wideband sensor into. That way the computer and tuner still have both O2's to monitor and the wideband will work all the time. On the Tweecer set up the wideband's output is connected to where the EGR signal was for data logging, so you can't run both. Other setups may be differant...

12-23-2002, 07:42 AM	#1
88workcar Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1999 Location: Pierre Part, La. U.S.A. Posts: 1,850	Supercharger Questions I just traded my Banshee for a 9 pound powerdyne. It came with 30# injectors. I have a set of 24#. Which one will be better? The guy I got it from says that his plug were black all the time. It is only three weeks used. He blew his motor and has been sitting for over a year. It came with a FMU, a pro-M 77 mass air, 30#ers, pullys brackets, and some other stuff. Also at 9lbs where should my timing be set at for starters? I also plan to make an air to water after cooler with an igloo in the car. I have the luxury of alum welding at my disposal. __________________ 88workcar 1988 Mustang LX 342. 417rwhp @ 6800. 28 X 10 ET Drag, 4.30s, 10.69 @ 126.43 1.42 60ft. 11.13 @ 127.7 on BFGs 1.72 60ft Rice Hater # 42 To be old and wise, You must first be young and stupid I'm somewhere in tthe middle.

12-23-2002, 10:37 AM	#2
Hozer 88GTConv Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 706	Black plugs... The reason why his plugs were black is because an FMU typically runs richer to ensure no detonation occurs. I know some FMU's typically keep the mixture all the way down to 12 : 1 . So at idle, which is what you are at most of the time, you just dump fuel. That is why I opted for the chip option in lieu of the FMU. Chips are more expensive, but their curves are matched for your exact combo. So you can't just slap stuff on and off with a chip, because you could suffer some issues. Just to compare, I run 42# injectors with a chip and a 70mm tb and a 90mm Maf. I would definitely run at least 30# injectors if you have some decent aftermarket heads. I just saw that you have some E7's and a E-cam. That big overlap will cause you to run rich anyway. Detonation = Bad __________________ 1988 GT Convertible 331 10:1 TW heads, GT-40 intake, MSD, TRW flattops, B Cam w/ 1.7's, MAC exhaust, 24's, 70 TB, 76 MAF, 3.73's, Pro 5.0, Koni's, Anderson PMS, Wideband 02, yatta, yatta... One week with new motor, two speeding tickets...joy

12-23-2002, 11:55 AM	#3
Stang_Crazy It's never clean enough! Join Date: Jan 1999 Location: Shaler, PA Posts: 1,542	DITCH the FMU. They are nothing but garbage. Without a FMU, you might want to go with a little bigger injector (36# maybe) and a larger volume fuel pump (255 lph). As far as timing, try setting it at 8* and see if there is any detonation. If you're ok, keep advancing it one degree at a time and checking for pings. __________________ ~Dan 2001 SVT Lightning 89' GT : Taking up garage space and waiting for a buyer... Rice Hater's Club - Member #11

12-23-2002, 11:40 PM	#4
SaleenGTS RICE taste like Chicken Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Edmond, OK Posts: 687	He's right...FMU's are garbage....just a vay to get around upgrading injectors.....they are a hassle too...you want mine? he he j/k __________________ Dustin 89 Saleen GT Sport Supercharged 306 Started her up 6/8/03 Old Motor Supercharged 347 516 rwhp 553 rwtq 11.249@126.83 1997 Honda CBR 1100XX Super Blackbird 162 hp

12-24-2002, 03:08 AM	#5
88workcar Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1999 Location: Pierre Part, La. U.S.A. Posts: 1,850	What about a btm? __________________ 88workcar 1988 Mustang LX 342. 417rwhp @ 6800. 28 X 10 ET Drag, 4.30s, 10.69 @ 126.43 1.42 60ft. 11.13 @ 127.7 on BFGs 1.72 60ft Rice Hater # 42 To be old and wise, You must first be young and stupid I'm somewhere in tthe middle.

12-24-2002, 09:17 AM	#7
Hozer 88GTConv Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 706	Timing retard... My Vortech SQ came with a MSD BTM. It is a necessity to pull timing off as boost goes up. __________________ 1988 GT Convertible 331 10:1 TW heads, GT-40 intake, MSD, TRW flattops, B Cam w/ 1.7's, MAC exhaust, 24's, 70 TB, 76 MAF, 3.73's, Pro 5.0, Koni's, Anderson PMS, Wideband 02, yatta, yatta... One week with new motor, two speeding tickets...joy

12-24-2002, 03:20 PM	#8
88workcar Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1999 Location: Pierre Part, La. U.S.A. Posts: 1,850	I know what it does, I was wondering if it is the right thing to go with? Also, what size injectors normally come with a powerdyne 9lb set up? I am thinking rather than get the automatic, I should use the money to perfect the charger? __________________ 88workcar 1988 Mustang LX 342. 417rwhp @ 6800. 28 X 10 ET Drag, 4.30s, 10.69 @ 126.43 1.42 60ft. 11.13 @ 127.7 on BFGs 1.72 60ft Rice Hater # 42 To be old and wise, You must first be young and stupid I'm somewhere in tthe middle.

12-24-2002, 11:24 PM	#9
SaleenGTS RICE taste like Chicken Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Edmond, OK Posts: 687	Definately get it....it will allow you to run higher timing at Idle for better response. The 9# kit comes with 30#ers. If you have a stock motor, that is fine.....when you swap heads, cam and intake you will prolly need 42's. If you are going to dump money into a blower get a SQ or ATI. __________________ Dustin 89 Saleen GT Sport Supercharged 306 Started her up 6/8/03 Old Motor Supercharged 347 516 rwhp 553 rwtq 11.249@126.83 1997 Honda CBR 1100XX Super Blackbird 162 hp

12-25-2002, 09:32 AM	#10
Hozer 88GTConv Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 706	Chip... I can't stress it enough, you really should look into a chip too. Once you go with a blower, you can kiss off any chance of keeping your idle perfect and your throttle response smooth without a chip over the lifespan of your blower. Having a custom chip burned to your combo's specs will allow the EEC-IV to do everything it can. I really don't know why Vortech sends FMU's with their kits. They recommend chips in their own literature. I had two seperate dyno sessions to ensure that my fuel and timing curves were exactly where they needed to be for the best response. It is without a doubt, the best way to go. I also recommend the Vortech SQ for kit completeness and streetability. __________________ 1988 GT Convertible 331 10:1 TW heads, GT-40 intake, MSD, TRW flattops, B Cam w/ 1.7's, MAC exhaust, 24's, 70 TB, 76 MAF, 3.73's, Pro 5.0, Koni's, Anderson PMS, Wideband 02, yatta, yatta... One week with new motor, two speeding tickets...joy

12-25-2002, 10:50 AM	#11
Old Guy with 87 GT Registered Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Harrisburg, Pennsylvania Posts: 379	88 workcar i'm curios....are you staying with speed density, if you are do you foresee any complications with running a blower and speed density i'm curios cause i still run speed density on mine ,i was also going to ask you about that e- cam your running and if you have any tuning issues ......i was debating dropping an e-cam in mine . ....... i don't want to get off topic ,but your like the speed density guru , .......when i get to time i'll start a thread to get some opinions on the combo i'm hoping to run __________________ the "not so old",old guy 87 Mustang GT T-top >hanlon t-5, pro 5.0, centerforce clutch ,adj. cable/quatrant ,3.27s ,full 2 1/2 ex(off road H) adj. reg. ,e-cam ,70mm TB, cobra intake ,1.7rr ,ported/milled e7ets w/crane springs ,306 balaced/decked short block w/speed pro forged flat top pistons ...257rwhp/302rwt best et 13.7@102 (4/11 ) '80 Capri (future project,currently collecting parts for 351 moter)

12-25-2002, 08:15 PM	#13
Hozer 88GTConv Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 706	Like you said... a chip will give you the benefit of matching fuel and timing curves exactly to your combo. Stang Crazy is, imo, one of the few who have attained a solid tune w/o the aid of a chip. I promise you he is in the minority. Is it possible w/o a chip? Sure. But your odds of success (that being a well-mannered street-strip machine) go way off the chart with a sound chip and takes a lot of guess work out of your tune. I also believe that a chip with a power adder gives you the best cost-benefit you could ask for in this crazy hobby for the insane. __________________ 1988 GT Convertible 331 10:1 TW heads, GT-40 intake, MSD, TRW flattops, B Cam w/ 1.7's, MAC exhaust, 24's, 70 TB, 76 MAF, 3.73's, Pro 5.0, Koni's, Anderson PMS, Wideband 02, yatta, yatta... One week with new motor, two speeding tickets...joy

12-25-2002, 11:39 PM	#14
Chris_H Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1999 Location: New Mexico Posts: 488	I have to admit I am in the minority too like Stang_crazy. I also run the Novi 1000 on my car, and it idle's as good as it did the day before I put the blower on it. I don't have a chip in it either. I have a friend who is a Diablo dealer, but we really don;t have a dyno to tune the car in with. Chris __________________ 1987 LX, Best times: 13.47 @ 102.49, 1.80 60ft 6900' DA

12-26-2002, 10:29 AM	#15
Hozer 88GTConv Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 706	Chris H... How much boost are you putting out? I am curious to see if you are runninig just 5-6 lbs which is much easier on your components and thus easier to tune or if you are in the neighborhood of 8 + pounds. Are you running with the Fuel unit that came with the Novi 1000 kit? And are you utilizing a bypass valve? Like I said, I am just curious. It's not that often that you have many genuine supercharged guys talking on the same thread. Most of the time it seems that guys are passing heresay from "my friends car had this..." __________________ 1988 GT Convertible 331 10:1 TW heads, GT-40 intake, MSD, TRW flattops, B Cam w/ 1.7's, MAC exhaust, 24's, 70 TB, 76 MAF, 3.73's, Pro 5.0, Koni's, Anderson PMS, Wideband 02, yatta, yatta... One week with new motor, two speeding tickets...joy

12-26-2002, 03:46 PM	#16
stangsrule Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: Indiana Posts: 512	Or you can go one better than a chip and get a tuning device like a TwEECer, PMS or the like and then you aren't stuck with whatever program(s) they burn you... You can tune and tweak to your heart's content. Some of them, like the TwEECer RT even do data logging!!! Now that's some pretty cool stuff! Use it along with a DYI wideband and you don't even need a dyno except for bragging rights! With a good tuning device and a wideband O2 you are the tuning master/chip burner/dyno shop! There are several good tuning devices out there but my vote is for the TwEECer RT at www.TwEECer.com And the owner of the company that makes it (Slower Traffic Keep Right) Mike Glover is hella cool! I had my mind made up to go with the PMS from Anderson Ford Motorsports but the TwEECer does more and is about half the price. I think it is at least worth looking into. Good luck with whatever you decide. __________________ 92GT Lowered with Ebiach's and Koni's, Kenny Brown subframe connectors, lower G-brace and jacking rails. BBK upper and lower control arms, polyurethane bushings all around and Ken Bell blower, ram-air, 80mm mass air, SMC Alky Injection kit, J&S Knock Gaurd, TwEECer RT and a bunch of other stuff! Last edited by stangsrule; 12-26-2002 at 03:53 PM..

12-26-2002, 04:12 PM	#17
Hozer 88GTConv Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 706	Tweecer Tweecer Wideband O2's...are they compatible with stock O2 mounts? __________________ 1988 GT Convertible 331 10:1 TW heads, GT-40 intake, MSD, TRW flattops, B Cam w/ 1.7's, MAC exhaust, 24's, 70 TB, 76 MAF, 3.73's, Pro 5.0, Koni's, Anderson PMS, Wideband 02, yatta, yatta... One week with new motor, two speeding tickets...joy

12-26-2002, 05:48 PM	#18
Chris_H Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1999 Location: New Mexico Posts: 488	Hozer, I have have to admit that with the elevation I am running at (3900ft) I am only seeing about 4.5 pounds of boost at the most. This thin air sucks for making power or boost. I am running the FMU that came with the kit, without a bypass valve. I plan on getting a bypass valve one of these days, but I figure at 4 pounds, its not big hurry. I've also considered going down to a 10:1 disc for the FMU. I am running way too rich on the top end. I have seen up to about 90lbs of fuel pressure at about 5800 rpm. I don't care to see it that high, but bigger injectors don;t make too much sense to me right now since I am still running on stock heads/cam/intake. I am always looking for suggestions from those who know more than I do about blowers. I am still new to all of this. Chris __________________ 1987 LX, Best times: 13.47 @ 102.49, 1.80 60ft 6900' DA

12-26-2002, 08:38 PM	#19
Hozer 88GTConv Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 706	I appreciate your honesty... so many people are so full of crap, especially when it comes to blowers. To me, they are a real challenge but they are worth it. I hope you have good luck. I have heard and read that experimenting with different diaphragm sizes could help you get the results you are looking for. __________________ 1988 GT Convertible 331 10:1 TW heads, GT-40 intake, MSD, TRW flattops, B Cam w/ 1.7's, MAC exhaust, 24's, 70 TB, 76 MAF, 3.73's, Pro 5.0, Koni's, Anderson PMS, Wideband 02, yatta, yatta... One week with new motor, two speeding tickets...joy

12-26-2002, 10:36 PM	#20
stangsrule Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: Indiana Posts: 512	Hozer, just to make sure we are clear on this, Tweecer does not make their own wideband, but there are several sources for buying an already built one and also a couple of places where you can buy the parts and plans to build your own. Anderson Ford Motorsports now has one they sell... Anyway, that said I would think ( I haven't gotten my own wideband yet but it is near the top of my list) the best thing would be to leave your O2's in their stock location and mount a new bung to install your wideband sensor into. That way the computer and tuner still have both O2's to monitor and the wideband will work all the time. On the Tweecer set up the wideband's output is connected to where the EGR signal was for data logging, so you can't run both. Other setups may be differant... __________________ 92GT Lowered with Ebiach's and Koni's, Kenny Brown subframe connectors, lower G-brace and jacking rails. BBK upper and lower control arms, polyurethane bushings all around and Ken Bell blower, ram-air, 80mm mass air, SMC Alky Injection kit, J&S Knock Gaurd, TwEECer RT and a bunch of other stuff!

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