5.0 vs 4.6 what faster stock both 5 speed 95vs96

[PKRWUD]

Unit-
That was well said.

Coupe5oh-
Let me clarify something. I'm getting older, and time goes by much quicker than it used to. To me, 1990 seems like 5 years ago. When I was big into street racing (mid 1980's), there were no EFI cars racing. When I got out of street racing (1990ish), there still weren't any EFI's racing. You would have been laughed to death if you had even suggested the EFI cars would be to racing what they are today. I love carbs. I can rebuild a Holley in my sleep. But their decline in the racing world has been incredible. I still can't believe how much things have changed in the past 10 years. Pushrod 5.0's will always be around, but never in the quantity they are in now. There will be less of them next year, and fewer still the year after that. 10 years from now, they will thought of as old school. There won't be half as many as there are now. The modular engines are here to stay, regardless of the displacement, and they will be the engines of choice in 10 years. I know it may be hard to see that now, but I'm afraid it's true. As the pushrod engine disappears, so will the need for aftermarket parts, and thus, the availability. It wasn't that long ago that true blue Ford racers wouldn't use any small block other than a 351C. If you suggested a 351W, let alone a 302, you wouldn't be taken seriously. Today, Cleveland engines are so rare, there's no where near the amount of aftermarket parts available that there used to be. It's called supply and demand. The future for fast Fords consit of modular engines and forced induction.

Mach1-
Technology is moving faster and faster everyday. 20 years ago the very idea of a message board such as this was unbelievable. Now that the ball has started to roll, mod engine performance parts will become more and more available, and their costs will drop. I'm not saying I'm entirely happy about it. I have invested the past 20 years and thousands and thousands of dollars on my ability to repair pushrod engines. These mod engines require a whole new education and a different set of tools (many of which require a power supply).

Take care,
-Chris

------------------
Retired Moderator
MustangNet

My site: Peckerwoods Pit Stop



My teams site: Jim Porter Racing

RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR

HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN.

[90'5.0 Conv]

Damn, just when you figure something out, they go and change it.

------------------
90 5.0 Convertible
and loving every minute
of it!!

[Unit 5302]

I'm a little worried about the mod motors period. I would be willing to bet money that the only reason the Mustang is still be rumored to get them in 2003 instead of the 3.9L V-8 is because of the F series. No other cars in Ford's linuep uses the mod engines anymore, and Ford being the cheapasses they've become would never justify the use of an entire line of engines for 1 model.

Ford needs some marketing people, and in a bad way. Look at all the European compitition. They are all front engine, rear wheel drive for luxury and high class luxury/sport. Why can't make a RWD Crown Vic (different name?) to compete with those cars? It's all marketing. GM can't do it with their Cadallac line because they can't build a quality rwd luxury car with performance.

[PKRWUD]

What about the Caddy STS?

As far as Mod engines go, the 3.9 is a modular engine. So is the Lincoln LS 220hp 3.0 V6. So are the other 3.0's, and the 2.5's as well. That 4.0 Jaguar engine? It's a mod engine too. The 6.8 V10 and the 6.0 V12 (used in the Astons) are also mod engines.

They're all over the place, but in particular, they are the highest performing engine in each of their vehicles classes (V engines).

Take care,
-Chris

[This message has been edited by PKRWUD (edited 11-10-2001).]

[2FastLX]

Originally posted by PKRWUD:
It wasn't that long ago that true blue Ford racers wouldn't use any small block other than a 351C. If you suggested a 351W, let alone a 302, you wouldn't be taken seriously. Today, Cleveland engines are so rare, there's no where near the amount of aftermarket parts available that there used to be.

Chris, I have been around for awhile and I can't remember when there was ever an over abundance of Cleveland parts when compared to the small block parts that were available. Clevelands have always been kind of a rare site around here. Hell, I've seen more 302 Boss engines than I have 351 C's.

The two most popular engines were the small block Ford and the small block Chevy. I think the 5.0 will be around for a long time to come. After that, the 4.6 may take its place, but I don't see that coming until the aftermarket starts putting out some high quality aluminum heads and have been at it for awhile. Plus the fact that the 4.6 is harder to work on. Granted it's all a matter of getting in there and learning, but it will be awhile for the "back yard mechanic" starts feeling comfortable working on one. Do you remember when the Fox Body Stangs came out with the EFI engines? Everyone I know that built cars commented on how the back yard mechanic was dead with all this high tech stuff. He's not dead, he just adapted! It will eventually be the same with the 4.6 (if it's still around).

[This message has been edited by 2FastLX (edited 11-10-2001).]

[Unit 5302]

I was talking more about the modulars in the Mustang. 4.6L V-8. Also the 5.4L V-8 in the Cobra R.

[PKRWUD]

Unit-
I thought you were implying that the modular engine program at Ford was almost dead, with mod engines not in any other vehicles. I didn't realize you just meant those two sizes. Ford never intended the 5.4 to be anything other than a truck engine, but when the 4.6 didn't live up to it's expectation, a few specials were made. The 3.9 supercharged engine is stronger and faster than the 4.6, and truthfully, the Mustang would be lucky to get it, but the 4.6 parts are starting to hit the stores, so I think that's why they're going to ride it out a little longer. Who knows. I could see the 4.6 and 5.4 becoming strictly truck engines now that they have developed other modular engines that are better suited for cars, but again, who knows.

Take care,
-Chris

------------------
Retired Moderator
MustangNet

My site: Peckerwoods Pit Stop



My teams site: Jim Porter Racing

RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR

HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN.

[Mach 1]

Pkrwud - Is it really that much different wrenching on a mod engine? Other than overhead cams, the basics are all there, right? I can understand needing new tools, but how much different are they that you would say you wasted your education?

[Unit 5302]

I've heard that the Lincoln's 3.9L DOHC V-8 uses canted valve technology like the late great Boss Mustangs. Do you know anything about that, PKRWUD?

[PKRWUD]

Mach 1-
I don't feel for a minute like I wasted my education, I guess I'm just finding it tougher to adapt to new technology than it used to be.

Unit-
I don't know of any DOHC engines that aren't using canted valve technology. Canted valves are when the intake and the exhaust valve enter at different angles, and in a DOHC head, they face each other. What am I missing here?

Take care,
-Chris

[PKRWUD]

here's a cool cutaway of the 3.9:

Lincoln 3.9L mod engine

[Coupe5oh]

The 302 block may have stopped in production, but the aftermarket parts will probaly still grow, eventually will lose their popularity as the 302 is harder to find, but fellas.....im certain we, or even our granchildren wont have to search that hard, to find a nice 302, even if it came out of a junkyard, we will have the 5.0 for a long time to come.

[todd95GT]

blah blah blah 4.6 blah blah 5.0 blah. oh, blah blah 3.9 blah blah pushrod blah blah modular blah 4.6 just my opinion, that's all.

you know, when i had the pleasure of driving an 11 second chevelle, it was a true enjoyment telling the driver of the vehicle i just whooped (when he eventually caught up to me) that i was running a pump gas standard bore 350. i always wanted to build a poked 468 though. The bigger the number, even without the equivalent performance level, is still reassuring to the owner of the car. Without a doubt, there are some powerful small engines out there, but isn't nice driving a "5.0", a 302, a 347, etc.? 4.6 or 3.9 just doesn't have the same ring to it despite the technological achievements made to bring these engines to life. With the unfortunate fading of the F-body (yes, I said unfortunate, you have to admit it is a shame to kill off a car that runs like that), Ford doesn't really have to compete with anything do they? Do they need to keep increasing horsepower? Will people buy a 3.9l GT? Inevitably, I know they will. And Ford will continue to up the horsepower ante despite the lack of direct competition because they have to. Heck, there are plenty of GT's out there (probably including mine) that will lose embarrassingly to many import family sedans. Seen the new 265 hp Maxima? That scares the hell out of me. And Chris, no, I'm not back, my procedure is this Friday.

[Coupe5oh]

Yea, i heard of a maxima going 14.2 stock, or near, but i dont care, im not afraid, i'll beat that maxima like cornbread batter

But 265 hp sounds pretty cool in a maxima.

[PKRWUD]

Todd, Todd, Todd. You make a valid point, but it falls into the same trap as the computer processor megahertz myth. A bigger number doesn't mean it's going to be faster. Alot of people, in both cases, seem to think that if the number is higher, it must be faster, but we both know that's often not true. The 3.9L is a rocket in paper airplane clothing. The Mustang would be lucky (and faster) to get that engine.

Let's compare notes. The '94 De Tomaso came with a naturally aspirated 4.0L BMW V8 that was rated at a conservative 304hp, did 0-65 in less than 5 seconds, and had a top speed of 160 mph. In '95, there was a Ford built Aston Martin with a turboed 3.2L in-line six that developed 335hp and had a top speed of 162 mph. The Ferrari 348, the most common, average Ferrari sold, comes with a 300hp 3.4L V8. That's only 208 cubic inches! It does a 14.5 quarter mile, and has a top speed of 170 mph. Oh, and it's naturally aspirated too. Those are just 3 of dozens of examples in which a "tiny" engine yields plenty of power. One of the reasons we Americans have such a hard time with that idea is because we were raised on the pushrod V8's, and they aren't capable of such feats. Their primative design won't allow it.

Take care,
-Chris

[93GT50]

As much of a 5.0 fan that I am, I also have to agree that they will EVENTUALLY fall by the way-side. I love my '93 GT to no end due to the fact that there are endless options of aftermarket parts available for it. I also love that body-style. But, like all good things I do believe that the pushrod motor is coming to an end. A few months back I puchased a 2001 lightning with the 5.4 liter mod motor in it and I can't even begin to explain the difference in power. To say that these motors respond well to supercharging is a gross understatement apperant by the 380 hp, 450 ft lbs of torque put out by this truck. Like I said in the beginning though, I am a 5.0 fan through and through and will own one to the day that parts are no longer available, which I hope will be a LONG way down the road.

[Hyper92GT]

Well this is interesting. I think the 5.0 now out of production will fade, just like the fabled 351's, boss 302 etc. They may not meet future emission requirements who knows.
It may even be possible in 10-20 years combustion engines will not even be around, alternative fuel is gaining ground albeit at a snails pace. But as we have seen, future events can tend to accelerate certain issues.
Well a little off topic, point is enjoy what you have now, who knows what is in store for the future of automotive speed.
BTW 95GT will eat a 96-98GT, hands down.

[bosco]

as much as i dont want to hear it, i do think the 302 will fade away, but not anytime to soon, i think the popularity will continue to grow atleast a little more before the fall of the 302

[todd95GT]

PKRWUD-I was misunderstood. I'm not saying that you NEED the larger motor. $hit, I proved that to be false with my small block Chevy. I am saying it's nicer to HEAR and SAY that you have a 5.0 versus a 3.9 or similar smaller motor. No need to explain to me that power can be made with smaller cubes...South Florida Crank and Machine, a friend and engine builder, built a 2 liter, yes TWO liter, single turbo engine that generated over 800 horsepower. That's insanity at it's craziest. Call me crazy, but I would take a 600 horse 468 over a 1000 horse 4 banger anyday. I happen to like the way certain displacements sound. If I could shoehorn a Chevy 468 into my SN95 body and get some 7.7 emblems for the side.....hmmmmmmm.
Uh oh, some die-hard is bound to ***** over that one. Can't we all just get along?

[Coupe5oh]

Hehe, you stirred up the thread with that comment j/k, but it'd be nice to have a bigblock, no matter what the make, but imo, the 460 would make more hp than the 468 bowtie anyways, everyone has made some good points on this topic......until next time....