Ignition problem

[Mountain Main]

My girl freind was driving my car down the road and the check engine light went on and she pulled over and the car wouldn't work. I pulled the car into the garage and did a KOEO test. I receive code 96 High Speed fuel pump relay circuit open; Fuel pump secondary circuit failure. 21 Ect out of Self Test Range. I am not able to run a KOER Test. I checked the ect and it seems to be fine.

I can hear the fuel pump kick in and there is enough pressure at the shredder valve. I put new plug and new wires in the car. That didn't help. The Distributor cap and rotor are only six months old.
I can pick the center wire off the distributor and the car will keep on running due to the arking that I am creating. I bought a new MSD Coil and that didn't help. I then replaced the TFI Module, which Napa tested and said that it was no good. I then replaced the distributor, because I thought the stator was no good.

Starting fuel will not help. I can't hear any vaccuum leaks. The car has a new computer and fuel pump.

What do you think? Help!!

Any body have any problems with PIP?

I ready to take a shot in the dark and replace the wiring harness.

[PKRWUD]

I'm not clear on what the problem is that you are trying to correct. What's wrong? What are the symptoms? How did you determine that the ECT is good? You shouldn't do a KOER until you correct the KOEO codes, but what do you mean you are "not able to run a KOER"?

Help me help you.

Take care,
~Chris

[Mountain Main]

The engine will not turn over unless I pull the middle wire on the distributor and let it ark. The engine doesn't want to run unless you floor it and then it will shut down. The ECT is brand new. I tested it by measuring accross both terminals and received 2 volts. With the sensor connected and koeo I back probed through the wiring harness and found the same results.

I cleared the codes and try to run a KOER test and the scanner says that I'm not able to keep the engine running.

One day I drove the car around and was able to get a lot of KOEO codes. I will post to night. PKRWUD thankx for your help. I am clueless and really need your help.

[Nixon1]

The car won't TURN OVER unless you disconnect the coil wire at the cap and let the spark jump to the terminal?? Forgive me, but that makes no sense! Lol.... Ok, so you've got around 35-ish psi at the Schrader valve AFTER the priming, and about 38-40 psi DURING priming?

Now I'm not too familiar with Ford lingo..sorry....is the ECT the computer? (I'm used to hearing ECM.)

So the question is why won't the car stay running....the check engine light should have an answer if it's a sensor problem... I'll wait til you post those codes before I make any crazy guesses. But until then...maybe your EGR or IAC valves are completely frozen up. There, there's my 'shot in the dark' for ya.

[PKRWUD]

Nixon- ECT = Engine Coolant Temp sensor

Mountain Main-
Check and see what your TPS reads at idle, engine off, key on, by back probing the Black and Green wires, with the TPS connected.

It should be less than 1 volt, but I suspect it will be closer to 5 volts. Then see what it reads at WOT, and note how smooth the transition is between the two as you slowly open the throttle. If you have a DMM with a bargraph, use it to watch the transition. It's much easier to view the bargraph than to accurately read the changing numbers.

Post your results.


Both of you:

TURNING OVER is accomplished by the starter, regardless of whether or not it starts. FIRING is what happens when everything works properly, and it starts.



Take care,
~Chris

[Nixon1]

Thanks PKR...I was aware of that...which is why I said that makes no sense. And thanks for the de-abbreviation on that.. I just call it the coolant temp sensor...didn't know the abbreviation for it.

[Mountain Main]

I got the car running by lifting the wire off the center electrode of the distributor. Ran a KOEO test. It said that I received a code 96. No ECT code this time. Can you explain code 96.

Sorry for the terminology problem with turn over.

I don't have a bar graph DMM.

Should I test the TPS at the sensor or at the computer.

I assume I should test it at the sensor. While pulling back on the throttle linkage and testing the transition from idle to WOT

You can't do a KOER test untill you do fix the KOEO test correct.

Thanks

PKRWUD

[Mountain Main]

I went to run the TPS test and my volt meter was fried. It looks like I need to buy a new volt meter. Any suggestions on what volt meter I should buy. I don't have a lot of experience with volt meters. I do understand now that you need to start with the high numbers and work up untill the scale is readable.

I also hear that it is good to have one that graphs.

[FritzDaKat]

http://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/109/html/0650.html

I have the 87-3 model and I'll never use another. With all the money I've spent on lesser meters from Radio crack and other electronic's suppliers over a 10 year period, I could have bought 2 of these. And a handheld meter with graphing capabilities would be sweet, but as you can see on that page I linked the price is a bit restrictive for someone who dosent do alot of electronics work. In fact, for what you'll pay for a good DMM with an Oscilliscope function, you could buy the Fluke 87 AND a basic benchtop oscilliscope and STILL have enough money left for a basic 110 volt Mig welder.

[PKRWUD]

I need for you to test the TPS first. Backprobe the connector at the TPS, not at the ECM. See, there is a very real possibility that you have a short to ground in your vref circuit. This can cause many, many problems, with several symptoms, including sending the ECM into clear flood mode. This may or may not be the problem, but the way I work, I rule out things in a set pattern. That way I'm not jumping all over the place. It's a b*tch doing diagnostics online, and i've given myself far too many headaches over the past 4+ years by not following a pattern, like I do in the real world. Besides, you're going to have to have a DMM before we can go on, anyway.



I agree with Fritz in that Fluke is the best bang for the buck. I've got at least a dozen DMM's, including a 25 year old Fluke benchtop DMM (with tubes!), but my favorite is my 88. It came in a nice little case with a very handy inductive pick-up for measuring rpms without having to disconnect anything...

[PKRWUD]

I highly recommend that whatever DMM you get, try to get one with a bargraph. The tiny vertical lines at the bottom of the display in the attached pic shows what it looks like...

[PKRWUD]

A DMM that has auto-ranging is a plus, too.

[FritzDaKat]

Ooooh, let me know if and when you might ever decide to ditch that old benchtop model! I got's dib's

OR, let me know if it fry's, I have a few good sources for replacement tubes you might find handy.

[PKRWUD]

Originally posted by FritzDaKat
Ooooh, let me know if and when you might ever decide to ditch that old benchtop model! I got's dib's

OR, let me know if it fry's, I have a few good sources for replacement tubes you might find handy.

I'll put you in my Will.



Take care,
~Chris

[Mountain Main]

I put a new fuse in my DMM and it works so I did a Throttle Position Sensor tests. I did all these tests while KOER.

I first was able to back probe into the wiring harness connector that is closes to the sensor. But I was only able to get a connection with the green wire, which is the name of TP SIG. I tested it from idle to WOT. It looks like 0-5 volts smoothly.

I then wasn't able to back probe the orange wire, which is the Voltage Reference wire. So I jumped the orange wires and also jumped the green wires. The orange wire is consistant 5 volts through out idle and WOT.

Finally I did the black wire, which is the Signal Return wire I measured the return from the sensor and received a constant 4 1/2 Volts through out idle to WOT. There was one time I received 4 1/2 to 5 1/2 Volts from idle to WOT.

What do you think PKRWUD? Is the TPS toast.

[Mountain Main]

P.S.

PKRWUD


Nice DMM my buddy just got a fluke and spent 450 dollars on his out of Sears. A little to rich for my blood. I am looking for some thing that is under two hundred dollars.

Thanks

Mountain Main

[tmoss]

Sounds like your TPS is operating OK from your description. Fluke has good meters for $200 or less. I have an older 7060A that is really nice. I've seen some pretty decent digitals for $50-100 for basic engine work. Not like a Fluke, but I bought one to keep on my bench all the time and it is very accurate - no bar graph though.

[PKRWUD]

Originally posted by Mountain Main
I put a new fuse in my DMM and it works so I did a Throttle Position Sensor tests. I did all these tests while KOER.

I first was able to back probe into the wiring harness connector that is closes to the sensor. But I was only able to get a connection with the green wire, which is the name of TP SIG. I tested it from idle to WOT. It looks like 0-5 volts smoothly.

I then wasn't able to back probe the orange wire, which is the Voltage Reference wire. So I jumped the orange wires and also jumped the green wires. The orange wire is consistant 5 volts through out idle and WOT.

Finally I did the black wire, which is the Signal Return wire I measured the return from the sensor and received a constant 4 1/2 Volts through out idle to WOT. There was one time I received 4 1/2 to 5 1/2 Volts from idle to WOT.

What do you think PKRWUD? Is the TPS toast.

First off, this needs to be done at KOEO. The engine is not to be running. Second, what did you connect your other test lead to when you got those readings? It really doesn't matter, what I need to know is what the reading is when you attach your leads to the green and black wires at the same time. Connect your pos. lead to the green wire, and your neg lead to the black wire, and read the meter at idle through WOT. Your readings did not sound normal, because your green wire results should never be zero volts, and I don't understand what you connected to to recieve voltage through the black wire. Forget about about the orange wire for now, just tell me the voltage between the green and black, while going through the throttle range. The wires have to be hooked up, and the key on, but the engine off.

[Mountain Main]

So I am going to do this test KOEO. I am jumping wires green and black with individual wires to their same color wire on the harness. I am going to be putting my positive lead on the of my dmm on the green wire and my negative lead of the dmm on the black wire. I am going to go through the throttle range. I'm not going to do any thing with the orange wire. I won't even be jumpered.

The previous time I connected the negative lead of my dmm to a ground on the car. This time I am going put the negative to black wire and the postive DMM lead to the Green wire.

[tmoss]

Originally posted by Mountain Main
But I was only able to get a connection with the green wire, which is the name of TP SIG. I tested it from idle to WOT. It looks like 0-5 volts smoothly.

This tested the range of the TPS even though you used engine block ground instead of the black ground wire.