Why did they stop?

[ace2600]

If there is such a great following on the 5.0 engines why did they stop making putting them in new Mustangs? Is the technology out of date or bad mpg? And if not 5.0 why dont they still put pushrod engines in Mustangs (if they still do then never mind)becuase don't they still put pushrods in Camaros and Firebirds (if they don't then never mind again)?

Thanks,
Ace

[PKRWUD]

Ford made a commitment to go modular about 15 years ago. The first 4.6's were put into passenger cars 10 years ago. The 5.0 was never a perfect engine, but the modular engines might be. Someday. They have alot more potential.

Pushrods. I used to feel that way too, but think about it. The pushrod is just another piece that can fail. Hell, even the new Harley's don't have pushrods anymore!

Take care
~Chris

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Retired Moderator
MustangNet

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[ace2600]

How does the modular engine have more potential, and why do they call it modular?

Thanks,
Ace

[This message has been edited by ace2600 (edited 09-28-2001).]

[Unit 5302]

My personal opinion is that the 2v Mod 4.6L does not have any more potential than the 5.0L. The DOHC 4v does because of the superior flow rate the heads are able to obtain.

With a proper setup the 302 can rev fast and high, even with pushrods. The 302 was dumped because of emissions concerns, which was also why the old Chevy 350 LT-1's were dumped.

Ford looked at keeping the 5.0, but to meet upcoming more strict emissions, they canned it in favor of the mod motors. Ford would have had to do a complete head redesign (they did on a few, called the Ford Explorer), and it would have to be setup with OBDII. The investment to make the 302 viable beyond 2000 was significant. Getting the 302 (a design 35 years old when the last finally rolled off the assembly line) to compete with the newer LS1's that were coming out and run smooth and quiet like the newer cars Ford was targeting the Mustang at would have been hard to do.

The less expensive move was to go to the Modular V-8's. A series of engines that shared much in common (kinda like the old FE blocks) and taking some of the lessons learned clear back in the glory days of Muscle cars and applying them with today's technology created a line of increasingly powerful, smooth, and clean running powerplants.

The engines are built to take more than the current 302 block, and are more refined allowing for better marketing of the car. The advantages of the single overhead cam engine don't ever surface in a daily driven street V-8 IMHO.

Neither the 4.6L SOHC or the 5.0L Pushrod V-8 will see more than 6000rpms on a car intended for street usage, and that kind of rpm allows either engine to be well within it's capabilities and have a long life. Obviously the DOHC engine is another story, but there is very little in common between the parts used in the DOHC Cobra and the SOHC GT engine.

The benefits of the 4.6L SOHC's longer stroke, and it's OHC efficiency are outweighed by the brutish nature of the 302. Ford created an engine that would be competing with, and in many cases beating the much larger 350 from it's competitors for the next 30 years.

[PKRWUD]

Yeah, what he said.

Actually, Unit, I love ya like a brother, but I totally disagree. The Ford mod engines have only just begun. A stock 4.6 will not only beat a stock 5.0, it will get better gas mileage, show less wear, create fewer emissions, make less noise and require less maintenance while beating the 5.0.

The 5.0 has reached the end of it's useful lifespan. The mod engines have only just begun. In 10 years, there will be options for the mod engines that will make the 5.0 look like a flathead. Mods are smaller, much more efficient engines. There is no reason a stock 4.6 can't be easily worked to reach a 9000rpm redline, with no ill effects. The aftermarket is only recently developing parts for the mod engines, whereas the 302 has had hi-po parts for 35+ years. Just wait and see. Fortunately, they have already worked some of the serious bugs out (like the leaking composite intakes, or the always clogging EGR passages).

Of course, the biggest complaint I keep hearing is how hard it is to change the spark plugs, but the book time on a 4.6 is less than a 5.0. You just have to know what you're doing.

BTW, did you know that the camshafts used in the mod engines are composite? they started out with a hollow shaft, and introduced a fine metallic powder to molds that created lobes. The lobes were then heated up and "affixed" to the cams. Unfortunately, another one of the early bugs to fix was the occasional "rolling cam lobes".

Take care
~Chris

------------------
Retired Moderator
MustangNet

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RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR

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[ace2600]

I never really thought about the time the 5.0 has been on the market and that of the modular, it will be fun to see what happens to engine. But why do they call it Modular? And is there any difference between modular and any other SOHC engine.

Thanks,
Ace

Maybe I should repost this on the modular forum.

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The future owner of a 95 Mustang GT

[PKRWUD]

Let me try this again.

4.6L SOHC/4.6L DOHC/5.4L SOHC

In 1991, Ford unleashed a new era of muscle, one that is propelling us into the future. The modular engine focuses on low friction, excellent sealing and increased block stiffness. The design results in an extremely smooth running engine using aluminum heads and having all accessories rigidly mounted to the engine. Both the engine block and head are machined to close tolerances to produce a very precise assembly. The head bolts of modular engines actually extend past the cylinder bores into the bearing webs, eliminating bore distortion and providing a better head gasket seal. The sophisticated overhead cam design uses roller finger followers to lower friction and increase the RPM potential of the engine. On the bottom end, the deep skirt engine block and cross-bolted main caps contribute to a higher rigid assembly. Two engine plants manufacture Modular engines; Romeo produces all passenger car versions and Windsor produces the Modular Truck engines. Here’s a brief description of Modular V-8 engines.

4.6L SOHC

The 4.6L SOHC (2V) was first introduced in 1991. This engine is the basis for all modular engines as is used in passenger cars as well as trucks. The block is cast iron with a nodular crankshaft, while the heads are aluminum using an in-line valve design with 1 intake and 1 exhaust valve per cylinder. All passenger cars have press fit piston pins, while all truck engines have full floating piston pins to improve durability.


4.6L DOHC

The 4.6L DOHC (4V) was first introduced in the Mark VIII; however, in 1996 a similar version of this engine found its calling in the Mustang Cobra. The aluminum block and four-valve head make for a powerful combination producing 305 HP @ 7000 RPM. Internally the 4 bolt, cross-bolted main bearing caps provide the support necessary to easily handle the high RPM potential of the forged steel crankshaft. This engine uses hypereutectic pistons with full floating piston pins and upgraded connecting rod assemblies to improve durability.


5.4L SOHC

The 5.4L SOHC (2V) "Triton" engine released in trucks for 1997 is producing favorable reactions. This engine has a cast iron block, forged steel crankshaft, full floating piston pins and special 6000 RPM connecting rods. It is the 5.8L "pushrod engine" replacement.

They are referred to as Modular engines because their parts inter-connect with each of the others in their family. The current Ford Modular engine families are 60 degree and 90 degree, and are made up of the following:

Modular Engine Familes:

60-degree

V-6 DOHC

* 2.5L - various
* 2.5L - SVT Contour
* 3.0L - various
* 3.0L - Lincoln LS

V-8 DOHC

* 3.4L - SHO

V-12 DOHC

* 6.0L - Aston
* 6.0L - Indigo & GT90 (show car)


90-degree

V-8 SOHC

* 4.6L
* 5.4L - Triton
* 5.4L - SVT Lightning

V-8 DOHC

* 4.6L - Intech
* 4.6L - SVT*
* 5.4L - Lincoln*
* 5.4L - Super Stallion (Show Car)
* 5.4L - Cobra R*

V-10 SOHC

* 6.8L - Triton


*Go here to see someKiller Ford Modular Engine Pictures.

Take care
~Chris

------------------
Retired Moderator
MustangNet

My site: JimPorterRacing

RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR

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[ace2600]

Thanks Chris!

[jetuomi]

Hey, very good detail, BUT, why did Chevy think that pushrods WERE the future when they redesigned the old 5.7 litre to the new 5.7 (347 CID I think) motor for the new C5??

This motor revs smoother, gets better mileage, and also puts out more power than the predecessor, so I right in thinking that if Ford redesigned the 5.0 in a similar fashion, instead of switching to the 4.6 SOHC, we wouldn't have noticed any advantages from the 4.6.. ??
(is this true?)

(Hope I don't come across confrontational here, AND, don't get me wrong, the 4.6 is an awesome motor in current trim !)

Thanks!

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94 GT (triple black)
FMS 95 17" Cobra R's / AL Driveshaft / 3.27's
K&N, 12* timing, 180* thermostat, 190 lph
MAC Shifter/Gauges/Pedals, Euro Clear Projectors & Corners
My CAR!

[Mach 1]

I remember reading somewhere that GM wanted to use the new 5.7 engine in their truck lineup primarily, so they wanted a pushrod motor because of the low end torque they produce, which is favorable to trucks.

Remember, they have been talking about cutting the camaro and T/A from the lineup for several years, so this motor will be used as a truck motor for the majority of its life.

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1993 GT/AOD
'93 Mustang GT

Ahh.. I misread what you said.. That would be a good motor for a truck.

[This message has been edited by rbatson (edited 09-30-2001).]

[Dark_5.0]

All I have to say is that I am running a 14.7@93 and I smoked 4.6's all night last night

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88 mustang gt convertible bored to 306 BBk equal length headers, mac cold air fender kit, 3.73 FMS gears, Steeds Tri-ax shifter, Steeda underdrive pullies, Custom off road X-pipe, 2 chamber flow masters, cowl hood, nitto drag radials, ford racing clutch, 160* thermostat 16 degrees of timing electric fan off 94' t-bird jacobs electronics cap and wires. Edelbrock 1 1/2 inch drop springs. (Best E.T. 14.79@93mph @3000ft)

[MiracleMax]

Every motor has its advantages and disadvantages;

Pushrod engines have fewer moving parts compared to an overhead cam engine, at the very least you have half the number of cams and attendant hardware. On the down side because of the need for pushrods, port alignment is compromised and probably valve placement in the combustion chamber. With the LS1 your looking at a pushrod engine at its pinnacle without having to resort to exotic hardware in order to minimize the problems associated with a pushrod.

As for torque production, any engine can produce gobs of torque, it can be OHV, OHC, SOHC, DOHC, 2 valve, 4 valve, rotary valve, reed valve, and so on. The misconception is that OHV 2 valve motors are torque monsters. aside from reduced friction from fewer mechanical parts, a OHV engine often has smaller than optimal port and valve sizes, which produces peak torque lower in the rev range (not to mention they typically tend to be larger in size!) hence the big torque numbers down low were most of us actually like it. swap out heads to a DOHC 4 valve design and you've got what amounts to a humungo port and valve size compared to the old OHV setup. Which will with no other changes move the torque peak farther up into the the rev range (this is all an over simplification since the cam, runner length ect, will move the torque around too). Ultimately it all has to do with velocity and volumetric efficiency which typically is highest around peak torque.

As for Ford's mod motor, it is a wonderful smog motor for a variety of environments. the small bore and long stroke makes for an engine that is tolerent of a wide variety of fuels (crappy to good gasoline), with that dinky bore (3.550?), the chance for detonation is reduced, crevice volume around the top ringland is smaller. Both of which offer significant improvements in emmisions (especially when cold). The OHC layout provides for better combustion chamber design and sparkplug placement as well as port layout. All big advantages on paper, however in execution, they seemed to have dropped the ball some place? I see no reason why Ford shouldn't have a 280 hp 4.6 SOHC engine running around or even one making 300 hp for that matter.

As for what makes the 5.0 great, the same thing that makes the SB chevy great, its an easy cheap motor to build in a variety of configurations, and has huge aftermarket support, how many intake manifolds for the 302? Probably 12 or 13 efi intakes alone, with an equal amount of options in cylinder heads, twice that for headers, 10 times that for camshafts, Heck you even have about 4 or 5 different choices for blocks alone. add to this options for supercharging,turbocharging, nitrous oxide, carburation, fuel injection, stroking/destroking, ect. and a large community of people who support the engine and thats what makes it such a great powerplant.

The mod motor might achieve the same level one day? It all depends? It will more and likely take a dedicated cadre of people who will like the 5.0 movement in its infancy will take it and make it faster, but thats a while off though, and Ford ain't helping much
(especially with rumors about a 4.0 liter mill in the next gen mustang), Sure they have a small parts program and there are some really fast mod motors out there, but the #1 problem is, you can walk into the General's show room and drive away in a low 13 second car for like 25,000. From Ford, your looking at 30,000, and for from the general for about the same price, your looking at high 12,'s

If for some reason (and I SEVERELY doubt this) if Ford should happen to produce a reasonalby priced GT with a low 13 second mod motor capable of whipping up on the soon to be defunct slomaro and fireturd, then the 5.0's days will come sooner than later.