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Still leaking?!!!!!!
Here's the short..... 88 stang new EFI 331, block tested and decked, TW aluminum heads. First build, it leaked water from both head gaskets external and internal, followed torque sequence and yes the right gaskets were used.Torqued to 75lbs. It didn't blow, just leaked....Called Trickflow, they recommended torque to 80lbs. I got the heads tested because Trickflow said they had to be within 3/1000 of a perfect mill. They were perfect.
Pulled it all apart, put on new gaskets, torqued to 80lbs, leaked again. Pulled it all apart, got new gaskets again, bought a new torque wrench, thinking it was not getting the right specs torqued down to 80lbs.....leaked again. Called speed shop and they said they torque their aluminum heads down to 95lbs and to go ahead and tighten them to 90lbs as it sits. THIS stopped the internal leak, so with no water in the oil we drove it around the block. Drives great, sounds great, runs great. STILL LEAKS external only now and only on the driver side. So now $300 in gaskets later and tons of sweat and blood, I'm going to do this for a 4th time and torque to 95lbs..... Comments?! Experience this problem before? I've done 9 or 10 motors with no problems, this is the first.... |
Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
My only thoughts are (and you have probably already thought of these or tried these), are you sure the block/heads are not cracked? It seems like perhaps the heads were not cast correctly. As long as you are sure the deck on the block is square (and was done properly, I have seen blocks that were not properly decked cause numerous problems, when I refer to being done properly, I not only mean a square surface, but also in keeping the correct angle with the line bore of the block), the only other obvious thing I can offer is are you putting any sealant on the head bolts that go into the water jackets? That will case an immediate leak for sure. I believe there are a few on the Windsors that do go into a water jacket. I hope this helps. Good luck, let me know what the problem is/was when you get it figured out.
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Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
Heads are perfect, and I had them milled and tested twice. I was thinking that too after the 2nd time.. They have been on two of my other cars so it's not the casting. Sealant was also used. ARP thread sealer.
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Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
The bottom head studs are leaking up through the threads. GAAA-RUN-TEE. Studs are only supposed to be "hand tight" in the block, but ya gotta use GOOD sealer on the threads. Had the same damn thing happen to me when we thrased all night to get ready for Fun Ford last year. Worked on the car until 6:00 AM, got 1 hour sleep, drove for 2, unloaded the car, and you guessed it. So we drank all weekend instead.
Anyways, got off topic there. I'll bet ya a donut that's your problem! ;) |
Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
But I'm not using studs... I've got the ARP bolts and I used the sealant....??
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Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
What kind of sealer? A friend of mine (has one of them bowtie thingys) could only get is to quit leaking using silicone. I've always had good luck with "555" with Teflon. Comes in a can with the brush in the lid, available at Home Depot or a local hardware store.
If you're SURE the block and heads are OK, that's gotta be it dude. If it was a bad (new) gasket, changing them would have fixed it. Odds of getting 2 "bad" gaskets in a row are about 3 bajillion:1. Tightening the head bolts to eventually get it to quit leaking internally tells me it's not a crack. Cracks will leak ALL the time. That's a tough one man. I'd yank out the bottom bolts (Toward the exhaust side) one at a time, and try a different sealer and go from there. I feel your pain bro! |
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Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
Would this also be causing problem #2? When it's hot, it will turn over and over and over and not start, after about 1 hour, she starts right up. New coil, new ignition, new Dist, hell new everything. My Fuel pressure reads around 32psi running but smells hella rich outside, could it be flooding it out?
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Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
NO TAPE! The 555 is a paste. If you can't find the 555, I think it's called Uni-lyte or something similar to that. It's actually used for sealing threads on black iron natural gas lines. And yes, it will throw off your torque specs. But look at it this way. Right now your torque specs are dead-ballz on..........along with leaks. If they say to torque to 85 ft/lbs (By the way, what's with all the car shows saying "Pound Feet" of torque now? When did "they" change it, and just for the record I'm not switching. It's "Foot Pounds" :D ) I add a few just for that reason. If they say 85, use the 555 and torque to 87-90. Not saying the 555 WILL fix your problem, like I said my buddy tried everything under the sun, and the only thing he found to work was high-temp silly putty. I shudder at the thought, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do.
If the head bolts are leaking coolant into the cylinders, even minute amounts it'll have trouble starting when hot (cuz the cooling system is pressurized) once it cools off (no pressure cuz of the leak) it'll fire right up. I've heard of crazier things happening! Try the 555 first, then other options are Indian head, Permatex makes a non-hardening sealer in a tube, and then there's the high temp ultra grey as a last resort. The other thing I'd do is drain the coolant, torque down the bolts with the new sealer, then let is sit for an hour or so. Let that stuff set up, THEN refill the cooling system. Keep me posted on this one bro. |
Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
Have you always been filling her up with water/anitfreeze when you get done? After reading all this I was gonna suggest what Jester said in the end of his previous post. I make it a usual practice to let any motor set overnight without any water in it after taking the heads off. Of course, I don't do this for a living either. I think that doing this alone is worth a try if you haven't already. As frustrated as this sounds, I'd probably get that 555 stuff Jester is talking about and let it set overnight before adding any more water to it. Just my $.02. Hope you get to the bottom of this one.
Oh yeah, I don't know what's with this "pound feet" crap. It annoys me to hear it like that. I agree it is still FOOT POUNDS! LOL. |
Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
If you were leaking at 75 ft lbs under light load (idling or just easy driving), then you have problems other than the correct torque on your head bolts.
What is your engine, head, gasket combo ?? Can you tell what area it's leaking from ? Somethin ain't lining up ! :confused: |
Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
Went out to the shop last night, it's called "555 Select-Unyte"
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Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
Is it leaking external from where?? Is the intake mating up OK??
Has the block been decked?? Mayber too much?? Are any of the headbolts holes showing signs of "puckering up" around the edge of the threaded holes in the block?? Need to be relieved there. Are any of the headbolts "mushy" when you torque them?? Not holding the torque good. If everything is flat, the headbolts are good, the treads are sealed, the intake meets the heads correctly and the gaskets are correct....well something has to be cracked. Wish you were closer. Hey, you'd be warmer !!!! I had a 289 in my shop doing similar antics. Fill up crankcase and fill up intake manifold with water. Cylinder heads were machined too much and they wouldn't seal. Have seen Ch**Y's do that, but they had angle cut heads to up compression ratio, too much too. I'm interested to hear what fixes it, besides a stick of TNT. |
Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
I like the idea of letting it sit over night before filling up the coolant system. I also wonder if the head bolts aren't getting stretched by this point. I am seriously interested in hearing the fix for this.
keep us posted! Ryan |
Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
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the leak is coming specifically from between the head and block, where the mate, between the 4th and 5th bolt locations. Yes, block has been decked, I didn't know you could do it too much... I had it done by a reputible place. Bolts actually feel good, there new ARP bolts, maybe I should go studs...? |
Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
Correct me if I'm wrong...but why let it sit overnight with no coolant? The thread sealer needs to dry?
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Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
That's the general idea. Not really dry, but setup good. The sealer should be non-hardening type, so it doesn't actually "dry".
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Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
That's what I thought. Ok, I'm going to pull one bolt at a time, use the 555 stuff, torque to 95, and not fill it till the next day. Nothing is cracked, I've had it all double checked and the intake is mating up perfect, it's been on my setup before just not this block. I honestly cannot pull it all down and back together a 4th time, you will all be receiving post cards from the mental house. Unfortunately, the car is garaged in Tx so I'll be going home to try all of this after FFW (April 1-2) in Lousy-ana. 1st annual, we'll see how it is. Thank you all so much and I will def lt you all know. If anyone has anymore ideas please post.
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Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
Oh shit!
You're supposed to let thread sealer set up? Hmmm, that could be why I go through a quart of oil every 250 miles with no apparent leaks and no smoke.... When I last put my heads on, I waited about an hour before I fired it up :D Sweet... |
Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
I'll throw in a vote for Permatex #2 non-hardening sealant. I have personally used that sealant since I was 15 and have NEVER had a leak when using it. Ever.
Having said that, if the threads aren't leaking and you're sure the heads are solid (flat and crack-free), that pretty much leaves the block to be the culprit. You can absolutely machine a deck surface or cylinder head too much! I have many possibilities of the source of the problem floating around my head right now, but I believe it's the machining that can make or break a seal. Going back to the possibility of a bad block, I'm thinking that if the deck and/or the cylinder walls are machined too thin, the heat from the engine will cause thermal expansion of the relatively thin metal and start to push up on the cylinder head, causing a leak. Just a thought. Does it ONLY leak when the engine it up to operating temperature and the coolant is under pressure? I'm wondering if it's temperature or pressure dependent, as that may eliminate a few possibilities. |
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Capri306, it only leaks when I fire it up, it does not need to be up to operating temp, pressure dependant is my answer. I was hoping it was the block because it was 100% gauranteed and decked, sonic tested, the full works. Houston Engine and Balancing in Houston did it and said it was all tested perfect. If the sealant doesn't work with the 95ft/lbs, then I will have the block tested again. They have a very high reputation and have never had a block come back. I wanted to say the heads because I didn't have this problem before I got them milled, but I got them tested. |
Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
This be the stuff. The "555" is better, made by the same company. But, if you can't find it, this should get you by.
http://www.knights-rule.com/images/555.jpg |
Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
I must have missed where you said what size bolts you are using. 95 ft./lbs is way too much for a 7/16 head bolt. I use 70 (for a 7/16) with oil between the head of the bolt and the washer. On the blind holes I use oil on the threads, and thread sealer on the ones that go in to the water jackets. Never had a problem.
Andy |
Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
I'd say it's narrowed down to the block-head interface then iff the threads aren't leaking and both the block and heads are crack- and porosity-free. That's your only other option.
p.s. iff = if and only if. :D I really hope you get this figured out, honestly. I can only imagine your frustration. |
Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
Too much torque? The engine builder said I should be good up to 100ft/lbs.??
Since I am going to do this one bolt at a time with the "555", do you think I should just go with studs? |
Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
Since the heads have been on other cars with no problems I think you block is out of whack.
I torqued my aluminum heads down to 30 and then 50 and then 70 ft lbs. I am using the same gaskets as you with ARP head bolts. |
Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
I read in 5.0 magazine just the other night, the techs torqued AFR heads on a stock block to 95.......I think I should be safe. We'll see not this weekend but next, I'll post back up and let everyone know. Thanks for all of the input.
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Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
I'll believe what ARP tells me before any magazine article. 95ft.lbs should only be used if it is a 1/2 inch stud, which 351w's have.
Assuming the block was decked in the proper machine, its kinda hard to screw it up without noticing. Now if someone set it up in an endmill and took cuts with a 1" cutter, thats a different story. I really doubt its the block, or the heads. I think its just bad luck. Oh yeah, and the junk fel pro head gaskets. I always use Cortecos on my N/A stuff. They are excellent gaskets, and priced real reasonably. I buy complete engine gasket sets for $70. Andy |
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Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
One more thing I was thinking: Make sure theres not an extra head dowel pushed all the way up inside the head. Some times reused dowels can be real loose and when you pull the head off you might not even see it cause its all the way to the top of its bore. If the machine shop put new ones in, and theres one still stuck in the head, that will definately cause a leak. A similiar situation happened to me a few weeks ago, but it wasnt on the motor, it was on the flow bench. For awhile there I had the best flowing intake port in the country (it was sucking air beneath the head surface). I didnt notice what the problem was until I reversed the bench to exhaust and the rubber seal between the head and plate started flapping.
Andy |
Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
Good call! Never thought of that!
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Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
Nice new avatar, Jester.
I hadn't thought of the head dowel either. Good call Andy. I'll also agree that 95 ft/lbs. is too much on a 7/16 bolt. When you take the heads back off, check your bolts. I know you said they felt good when you torqued them down, but they could still be ruined. I'd take the threaded ends of each bolt and mesh the threads together with another bolt to see how they look. I hope that makes sense. One more thing, is it leaking in the same place every time? |
Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
This might be a dumb question but are the head bolts being tightened in the correct pattern?
Nobody asked yet so I thought I'd ask to eliminate the obvious. |
Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
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Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
Oooops...my bad
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Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
Dark5.0, thanks for that and also the performance shop I talked to said yes ARP says one thing but he has never had a problem with too much torque on those bolts up to 100, I decided I'm going studs just to be on the safe side though. Like you, I have never had to torque aluminum heads down passed 70ft/lbs for a good seal.
Andy669, yes I checked that, I was wishing it was only that easy. Also checked to make sure the dowels seated all the way once in the heads, it's not stopping the head from seating at all. Studs, 555, 95ft/lbs and let is sit over night before filling it up is what I'm going to try. But as mentioned before it seems pressure dependant and I was also told these were the symptoms of a crack (leak when heated). If this doesn't work, then I think it won't leak if it's at the bottom of the river. |
Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
It may not be exactally what Andy said, but my bet would be something similar to that, like a puckered headbolt hole or something. Perhaps incompatable gasket / head / block combo ?
If it can't hold coolant just starting it up and idling in the driveway then it has to be something obvious ... a large crack or a serious warp or low/high spot on the block / head. I'm curious about the leaking headbolts theory, even if you have coolant coming up past the bolt threads, that area is still sealed from the outside world by the head gasket ?? Anywho, like everybody else, I'm curious to see what ends up fixing this one, please let us know, and good luck :) |
Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
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Rev |
Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
Man...if this was me and I had this much trouble with the heads sealing, I would be so pissed off by now that I would probably weld the heads right to the block :D
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Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
Well, FFW in Louisiana was pretty good, some 6 and 7 sec cars on hand. I spoke with a few of the pros and 2 out of 3 said use Cortecos gaskets, one said he had this problem as well and sprayed the entire gasket with a teflon or some kind of sealant spray, let them dry, then put them on and no leak.
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Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
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The spray stuff (at least around here) is called Copper Head, and it's made especially for head gaskets. AZ/Advance should have it. I was SOOOO frustrated at Fun Ford last year. Thrased to get the car done (left mine at home AGAIN) drove up there on 2 hours sleep, set valve lash, changed oil etc etc. Get ready for 1st round quals, and then the leak started. I was Smokin Mad! The head studs are what killed us. Leaked right up through the threads, and to the "outside" world anywhere it could, including the oil pan. We actually saw it ooozing up through the nut (think studs now) is the only way we found it. Had those been bolts, we might not have found it that easy. Guess I'm trying to take one of my bigger boo-boo's and help make it "all better" by making sure USMC isn't having the same problem. I'm not saying it IS his problem, but I sure as hell hope it's something that easy. |
Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
Got the heads off this weekend, finally. head gaskets looked good, not blown or broken anywhere. Ordering studs, Corteco head gaskets, 555, and head gasket spray this week. Will be getting the block test after next week and assembling yet again. Will keep you all posted.
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Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
BROKE A **CKING STUD IN THE BLOCK. PASSENGER SIDE ALL WENT TO 90FT/LBS FINE, DRIVER SIDE STUD BROKE. I QUIT. I'M TAKING IT BACK TO HOUSTON ENGINE AND LETTING THEM DO IT. THERE THE ONES WHO SAID GO TO 90FT/LBS IN THE FIRST PLACE. THIS IS RIDICULOUS. :mad: :mad:
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Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
If theyre the ones who told you it was ok to take a 7/16 stud to 95, I would stay away from them. 1/2 inch goes to 95, and 3/8 go to 45.
It might not be as bad as you think. The studs usually dont get super tight in the block. It might surprise you how easily it comes out. But next time, please take them to 50 on the first step, then 70. Oil the threads, and the mating surfaces of the washers and nuts. Andy |
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Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
90 ftlbs is way too much for a 7/16" bolt. I wouldn't even tighten mine to 80.
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Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
It was a stud, not a bolt. Houston Engine said they torque ALL their 7/16 studs to 100 ft/lbs. I'm bringing the car to them over the 4th of July weekend, he said they would fix it and put the heads on that day for free.
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Re: Still leaking?!!!!!!
I realize this is an old thread, but I was always curious what fixed this? I was reading thru the archives to bone up for my head install, when I stumbled across this.
Good info in this thread by the way! Ryan |
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Ryan, absolutely agree. The solution was the right LENGTH head studs, summit actually sent me some that were too short threaded,( even though they swore they sent me the right ones...) the nuts were bottoming out on the stud making the torque readings show 90ft/lbs when it was actually on the stud and not the head....Long story short, I doubled up on the ARP hardened washers and no more problems...talk about aggrevating though, I took it apart 3 times before I figured it out.
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