Supercharger Questions
 

I just traded my Banshee for a 9 pound powerdyne. It came with 30# injectors. I have a set of 24#. Which one will be better? The guy I got it from says that his plug were black all the time. It is only three weeks used. He blew his motor and has been sitting for over a year. It came with a FMU, a pro-M 77 mass air, 30#ers, pullys brackets, and some other stuff. Also at 9lbs where should my timing be set at for starters? I also plan to make an air to water after cooler with an igloo in the car. I have the luxury of alum welding at my disposal.

Black plugs...
 

The reason why his plugs were black is because an FMU typically runs richer to ensure no detonation occurs.

I know some FMU's typically keep the mixture all the way down to 12 : 1 . So at idle, which is what you are at most of the time, you just dump fuel.

That is why I opted for the chip option in lieu of the FMU. Chips are more expensive, but their curves are matched for your exact combo. So you can't just slap stuff on and off with a chip, because you could suffer some issues.

Just to compare, I run 42# injectors with a chip and a 70mm tb and a 90mm Maf. I would definitely run at least 30# injectors if you have some decent aftermarket heads. I just saw that you have some E7's and a E-cam. That big overlap will cause you to run rich anyway.

Detonation = Bad

DITCH the FMU. They are nothing but garbage. Without a FMU, you might want to go with a little bigger injector (36# maybe) and a larger volume fuel pump (255 lph). As far as timing, try setting it at 8* and see if there is any detonation. If you're ok, keep advancing it one degree at a time and checking for pings.

He's right...FMU's are garbage....just a vay to get around upgrading injectors.....they are a hassle too...you want mine? he he j/k

What about a btm?

BTM(boost timing master) basically lets you dial away detonation by retarding the timing in relation to the boost pressure that you run

Timing retard...
 

My Vortech SQ came with a MSD BTM.
It is a necessity to pull timing off as boost goes up.

I know what it does, I was wondering if it is the right thing to go with? Also, what size injectors normally come with a powerdyne 9lb set up? I am thinking rather than get the automatic, I should use the money to perfect the charger?

Definately get it....it will allow you to run higher timing at Idle for better response.

The 9# kit comes with 30#ers. If you have a stock motor, that is fine.....when you swap heads, cam and intake you will prolly need 42's. If you are going to dump money into a blower get a SQ or ATI.

Chip...
 

I can't stress it enough, you really should look into a chip too.

Once you go with a blower, you can kiss off any chance of keeping your idle perfect and your throttle response smooth without a chip over the lifespan of your blower.

Having a custom chip burned to your combo's specs will allow the EEC-IV to do everything it can.

I really don't know why Vortech sends FMU's with their kits. They recommend chips in their own literature.

I had two seperate dyno sessions to ensure that my fuel and timing curves were exactly where they needed to be for the best response. It is without a doubt, the best way to go.

I also recommend the Vortech SQ for kit completeness and streetability.

88 workcar
i'm curios....are you staying with speed density, if you are do you foresee any complications with running a blower and speed density

i'm curios cause i still run speed density on mine ,i was also going to ask you about that e- cam your running and if you have any tuning issues ......i was debating dropping an e-cam in mine
.
....... i don't want to get off topic ,but your like the speed density guru ,
.......when i get to time i'll start a thread to get some opinions on the combo i'm hoping to run

Re: Chip...
 

A chip is not necessary in order to attain good idle and driveability. Granted, with a chip your tune will be sharper...I don't have a chip and my car idles and runs just like it did before the blower.

Like you said...
 

a chip will give you the benefit of matching fuel and timing curves exactly to your combo.

Stang Crazy is, imo, one of the few who have attained a solid tune w/o the aid of a chip. I promise you he is in the minority.

Is it possible w/o a chip? Sure. But your odds of success (that being a well-mannered street-strip machine) go way off the chart with a sound chip and takes a lot of guess work out of your tune.

I also believe that a chip with a power adder gives you the best cost-benefit you could ask for in this crazy hobby for the insane.

I have to admit I am in the minority too like Stang_crazy. I also run the Novi 1000 on my car, and it idle's as good as it did the day before I put the blower on it. I don't have a chip in it either. I have a friend who is a Diablo dealer, but we really don;t have a dyno to tune the car in with.

Chris

Chris H...
 

How much boost are you putting out?

I am curious to see if you are runninig just 5-6 lbs which is much easier on your components and thus easier to tune or if you are in the neighborhood of 8 + pounds.

Are you running with the Fuel unit that came with the Novi 1000 kit? And are you utilizing a bypass valve?

Like I said, I am just curious. It's not that often that you have many genuine supercharged guys talking on the same thread. Most of the time it seems that guys are passing heresay from "my friends car had this..."

Or you can go one better than a chip and get a tuning device like a TwEECer, PMS or the like and then you aren't stuck with whatever program(s) they burn you... You can tune and tweak to your heart's content. Some of them, like the TwEECer RT even do data logging!!! Now that's some pretty cool stuff! Use it along with a DYI wideband and you don't even need a dyno except for bragging rights! ;) With a good tuning device and a wideband O2 you are the tuning master/chip burner/dyno shop!:cool: There are several good tuning devices out there but my vote is for the TwEECer RT at www.TwEECer.com And the owner of the company that makes it (Slower Traffic Keep Right) Mike Glover is hella cool! I had my mind made up to go with the PMS from Anderson Ford Motorsports but the TwEECer does more and is about half the price. I think it is at least worth looking into. Good luck with whatever you decide. :cool:

Tweecer
 

Tweecer Wideband O2's...are they compatible with stock O2 mounts?

Hozer, I have have to admit that with the elevation I am running at (3900ft) I am only seeing about 4.5 pounds of boost at the most. This thin air sucks for making power or boost. I am running the FMU that came with the kit, without a bypass valve. I plan on getting a bypass valve one of these days, but I figure at 4 pounds, its not big hurry. I've also considered going down to a 10:1 disc for the FMU. I am running way too rich on the top end. I have seen up to about 90lbs of fuel pressure at about 5800 rpm. I don't care to see it that high, but bigger injectors don;t make too much sense to me right now since I am still running on stock heads/cam/intake.
I am always looking for suggestions from those who know more than I do about blowers. I am still new to all of this.

Chris

I appreciate your honesty...
 

so many people are so full of crap, especially when it comes to blowers.
To me, they are a real challenge but they are worth it. I hope you have good luck. I have heard and read that experimenting with different diaphragm sizes could help you get the results you are looking for.

Hozer, just to make sure we are clear on this, Tweecer does not make their own wideband, but there are several sources for buying an already built one and also a couple of places where you can buy the parts and plans to build your own. Anderson Ford Motorsports now has one they sell... Anyway, that said I would think ( I haven't gotten my own wideband yet but it is near the top of my list) the best thing would be to leave your O2's in their stock location and mount a new bung to install your wideband sensor into. That way the computer and tuner still have both O2's to monitor and the wideband will work all the time. On the Tweecer set up the wideband's output is connected to where the EGR signal was for data logging, so you can't run both. Other setups may be differant...

I have an ATI Procharger with intercooler that peaks at 10psi @6000RPM. 94 GT 5 spd, stock motor except for Ecam as you can see below.
I'd like to clarify some of the posts on this thread with the experience I've had with mine.

My supercharger never affected my idle or driveability. The dump valve is open until you nail the throttle so the engine operates as normal.

The FMU jacks up fuel pressure proportionately to manifold pressure. It does not affect idle or light throttle fuel mixture at all. It acts on positive manifold pressure only (boost conditions) which you only have when you nail the throttle pretty heavy.

My boost level is exceeding the limits of my 19# injectors to the point of lean out pinging in cold dry weather. (I thought it was timing but it isn't). The FMU is already raising fuel pressure over 100psi. I would run 30's or higher if you could. It would be best to have injectors big enough to run without an FMU. You can do a search, I think even on this sight, to get a calculation on what size injectors to run based on HP.
my 2 cents

Tweecer...
 

Interesting website at tweecer. I especially like the link to the forum with tweecer users to derive optimal settings.
$500 plus the widebands though....I would like to hear some more about it from users. I think it would be great, despite the fact that even the tweecer website says there "is a great deal of trial and error".
I think the ability to switch operational programs like that would be great for the weekend racer.

Go with the 42lb injectors and bypass the FMU they suck. Set your timming at 10 degrees and go from there. Then GET A CHIP. It is a must with any blower. Your idle will probaly suck with the e-cam I know mine does. If you set your base idle to 1000 rpm's it will help a lot. If you plan on running a/c forget about it. You will have constant idle problems there. Good luck:)

What would be better, a chip? or the twECCer? or somthing else? I was told yesterday that with a computer that is programable that I don't need the FMU or BTM. If so it is cheaper for the twECCer than a custom chip and a BTM. I would enjoy having the ability to tune the computer, raise the rev limiter and all that stuff.

Tweecer...
 

88Workcar,
The tweecer website says there is a dedicated yahoo chatroom for tweecer users who discuss and trade programs for various applications. I'm sure you could go there and get some idea/feedback on the viability of the unit.
Like I said, the price is around $500 plus widebands and that is just for the basic unit. The data logger option sounds like the best to me, but I am just beginning to investigate this too. It sounds expensive though, but what isn't in this hobby?

"Calibration data includes:
Engine displacement
Injector size
MAF function
Base / Stabilized / startup fuel mixture
Base / Altitude / Limp mode timing tables
94/95 AOD-E shift points, TV Pressure, etc
Drive & Neutral idle rpm
Neutral & in gear rev limits
This is just a brief sample of the data locations which may be modified.

Do you have a custom chip, why start from scratch, you pay shipping to and from us and we will read it and send it back to you. Free! Just flash the bin file to your TwEECer and you have a good solid starting point and a calibration you know is safe, now start modifying that file and save it to one of the other 3 calibration locations you have available"

WARNING:
YOU MUST HAVE KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING OF CHANGING EEC PARAMETERS OR YOU MAY NEGATIVELY AFFECT YOUR CAR’S PERFORMANCE!

TwEECer RT
- Real Time data logging, viewing and playback
- includes CalEdit, CalCon & cables.
$550 + $11 shipping
Texas Residents must pay sales tax

I think as soon as I find a wideband 02, I 'm doing it!!!
Look at the dyno pulls on the website...interesting stuff.

100 psi is too high.

How much boost?
 

Saleen.
Those are nice numbers for your 347. How much boost are you running at what RPM? Is yours a daily driver?
Thanks, just looking forward to the day when I can slap a 331 in...I can't believe it either...

I have a powerdyne 6# unit. I rarely ever see this many people with superchargers in one thread. Is there anywhere to go to on the web that has forums for supercharged cars? Sometimes I need something answered related to my s/c and I can't seem to find anyone who knows. Thanks, Keith

I have my wife driving a supercharged 95 with the Vortech V1, i believe it's only like 5 or 6 lbs with the 155lph pump, X-pipe, FMU, and 9mm wires. We have no idle problems and no pinging as long as we stick to 93+ octane, I am sending the unit back to Vortech tomorrow for a bearing rebuild only after 21k miles. I am also going to upgrade to the 10lbs pulley and a trickflow intake and cooler plugs. We are still utilizing the stock 19lb injectors with the FMU. Do you guys think we we start having problems with the upgraded boost to 10lbs or not yet?

Hey Hozer and 88Work car and for that matter anybody else interested in the TwEECer you also should check out this link:http://tweecer.oplnk.net/ They now have a message board too, the Yahoo chat thing is really hard to follow...
And for widebands look at these links: http://www.diy-wb.com/info.htm
http://www.techedge.com.au/vehicle/wbo2/
http://www.lambdaboy.com/
http://www.fjoinc.com/automotive/WBO...dairfuelk.html

The last one is not a wideband and I don't know much about it but some guys at the corral were swearing it was as accurate as the dyno shop widebands they were comparing it to...

supercharged forum...
 

I'm not sure how many of us there are...but I think it's a great idea to have a supercharger forum..
I'm going to take a long hard look at the tweecer sites tonight. If my MAC cat back sells on ebay soon, I'm on it!....
I just finished swapping my equal shorty headers for some new ones...damn. What fun! Taking motor mounts off! Joy! (Yes I have had several beers)...found wet oil and a bunch of crud(and I mean debris) on the tip of the number 5 plug...uh oh..hope I haven't blown something....

I am all for a supercharger forum, I often have to go to the Corral for supercharger info... :( Don't get me wrong, the Corral is a nice place and all, but Mustang Works is my home. ;) Let's talk to Dan about it!:)

I think a supercharger forum is a GREAT idea!! I always have to go to Corral or Stangnet to get answers to some of my questions.

HOZER, What would you car dyno with the blower disconnected? I am impressed with 460ftpd with 8# of boost.

Non-blown torque numbers...
 

Before the blower with a misfire due to a bad PIP sensor in my then Mallory billet distributor (never, ever buy this piece of junk, a $225 mistake) it did 330 ft/lbs after some dyno tuning. I have to admit it was more the guys at the shop than me at the time, tweaking my a/f and my timing just right.
Of course now it seems I have a bit of a valve guide problem with number 5 cylinder...great, happy f-ing new year....

88 workcar,
I must be part of the minority . My S trimed engine ran a 10.13@135 with base timing and a BTM . No chip ! Idled fine. Don't get all caught up in chips/fmu's and everything. I know quite a few guys who run and have ran up to 12lbs of boost with 30lb injectors. Although 42's are nice, they usually reqire a chip because the car just won't idle with them. If I were you, I would make sure the ProM 77 is calabrated for a supercharger. ( That makes it 10% richer everywhere but idle. ) Put the 30's in, base fuel pressure at 45lbs, get a big fuel pump. Then, first thing, put it on a dyno with a wideband and see where you are at. If you are interested in how I ran my timing, let me know, I will tell you what and where I had everything.

Tim:cool:

Tim, FMU or not?

I would try it with no FMU. But again, the true test is with a wideband. You have lots of money and a nice car, you don't need to granade the engine over $100 dyno session. If it turns out you need more fuel, larger injectors would be the way I would go. But, you have the 30's now, try them.

FMU or Not...
 

What 302 is saying is true. I am not saying it is impossible to achieve good results w/o the aid of a chip. I just think it is money well spent.
If you drop the several grand for a blower setup, the extra couple of hundred was the best way for me (and for many others) to achieve optimum efficiency for their setup.
It allowed me to utilize known optimum fuel and timing curves for my combo.
Translation = Minimal guess work
Is it mandatory? Of course not.

That tweecer rt sure is nice though...

I agree with Hozer 88GTConv, there are a bunch of ways to skin a cat. But, being new to Superchargers, it can be overwhelming on what you need, and what you have to have and what you need to get. Again , on my S trimed car, it was so basic it wasn't even funny. But it worked great. That is what I wanted to share with you so that you don't get sticker shock on all these have to have items.

Lets rework the question, I have a 9# powerdyne. It at best made 8#s on the car it was on. I have a FMU, a boost gauge, a 77 pro M calibrated for 30#ers, a set of 30lb injectors, a bypass valve, all brackets, hoses clamps, ect.... the FMU even has a bleeder on it. Do I use all this? Is it the right stuff. Will it be safe?

Yes...
 

Yes, you will be fine.
I would say keep the timing initially conservative and bump it up incrementally.
As you become comfortable with the setup, after a couple of months, give a couple of the chip manufacturers a call.
Specify your combo, and I bet they could give you a product that would be worth it in tenths at the very least...
Just my .02
Either way you will love it, and that's all that matters...