Surging Problem - Help - Page 2

95mustanggt · 08-13-2001, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lawless:
Oh yeah, I live in Northern Alberta.......... there are no dyno's, speed shops or the like here. I am on my own.

Jay,

Your problem is that you live in Fort Mac.

(j/k I'm originally from Edmonton. Sorry I just had to add that.)

------------------
1995 Mustang GT

andy669 · 08-13-2001, 06:10 PM

Well Jay, to answer youre one question, you do have a pro-m maf. (like you originally thought) And yes, the 77's are excellent meters. As everyone here is going to tell you, the change in fuel pressure is only going to last so long. Before too long the computer is going to adapt. It sounds to me like you are having fuel problems. If thats the case, getting some type of fuel management system would give you good driveability along with performance. You mentioned that you had already tried a superchip. Well, a chip is only as good as the tuner who burned it. Call JMS, they know what they are doing. Or go all out and get a PMS or EPEC or something like that.
good luck
andy

------------------
3 Black 94 GT Vert. AODE/TKO conversion, 3:73's, ported X-305's, GT40 manifolds, 75mm TB, 30lbers, PMS, 300 horse Top Gun wet kit, and all the other little stuff

Lawless · 08-13-2001, 08:09 PM

Mike, Chris, Andy & others......

I brought the fuel pressure up to 58 psi static with no noticeable improvement. I returned it back to 48 psi.

I connected a vacuum pump to the top port of the HKS Bypass Valve (the one manifold vacuum was connected to, the one HKS told me to connect it to)........ wouldn't hold vacuum (vacuum leak), the valve never moved. I then hooked the pump to the bottom port and at 13 HG the valve began to open. I tried the adjustment bolt and all that did was control the speed of the release (once there was less then 13 HG). All the way out meant the valve closed faster, in slower. Something must be wrong here, sounds like I need new valve. The oulet faced the wrong way anyway and well the missing nipple thing. What should I buy ? It also sounds like I need a power pipe with inlet for the bypass valve. What kind should I buy ?. I'd like to keep the MAP in the fender. Could this have anything to do with my "low speed surge", it does not sound like it would effect the high speed one ? Basically the way it was operating..... the valve was closed all the time and I had a minor vacuum leak.

I'll call JMS and ask them some questions. Does anyone know their number ? Do they have a toll free one ? I need to eat this week........lol

Jay

Lawless · 08-14-2001, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 95mustanggt:
Jay,

Your problem is that you live in Fort Mac.

(j/k I'm originally from Edmonton. Sorry I just had to add that.)

Rub it in !

Lawless · 08-14-2001, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 95mustanggt:
Jay,

Your problem is that you live in Fort Mac.

(j/k I'm originally from Edmonton. Sorry I just had to add that.)

Rub it in !

moosejaw · 08-14-2001, 09:57 AM

So the bottom port made it work right. Ok thats good. But we still need it routed back to the blower inlet. The reason is, once the air is measured by the air meter you need to keep this air in the intake pipe/blower pipe. Otherwise when the bypass dumps your motor will go rich. Yes I know you are/were lean but I kinda figured something was up with the bypass.

It is probable that at idle (with the bypass not opening) and low load the R-trim is pushing in more air than the motor can handle or need. Getting another bypass and setting it to open sooner 4-7" will help the off idle surge.

You can allow a bypass to "dump" the way you have it, if and only if the air meter comes after the bypass. This technique prevents metered air from being dumped out because only the air going to the motor gets measured. This is very difficult to engineer on your blower due to limited distance of piping. Driver side mounted blowers are better suited for this type of configuration. I have my blow off set up this way and you would not believe how much air discharges at idle. You could dry your hands with it!

The high rpm surge you heard and felt was most likely due to the bypass not opening. Lifting the throttle a little at high rpm can shoot the boost up at the throttle blade causing the unwanted pressure waves that make everything shudder.

Check out Anderson Ford for a nice discharge tube, power pipe and bypass combo for Vortech blowers. One neat package that fits well. You can retain the Maf in the fender-well with these pipes. There is a link to them on the links page/after market section.

Your vacuum leak seems to have been partly due to the bypass. With a new bypass you could lower your fuel pressure back to what you started with (40ish). Then with adjusting the bypass for drive-ablity things should be good.

Anderson is also an authority on getting blower cars to run. They could fill in any thing I may have missed. I'm not sure if you need a PMS but having one can never hurt. It is nice to be able to add or subtract fuel+timing while in boost.

Kinda weird but I have been to Edmonton, Redwater, Jasper..etc Alberta. Once you leave Edmonton there is very little support.

Good luck. Keep us posted.

Mike

------------------
Live near St.Louis?
Check out Mustang Muscle and Dyno in High Ridge, MO
Check out my ride.

95mustanggt · 08-14-2001, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lawless:
Rub it in !

Check your private messages.

Hey, sometimes I wish I was back in Northern Alberta. Do know how hard it is to work on you car in 100+ Texas summers! I'd way rather have my 20-25*C Canadian summers for working on cars.

------------------
1995 Mustang GT

Lawless · 08-14-2001, 05:53 PM

Update:

I ordered the Anderson Power Pipe (part number # AF-0106)and a super bypass. There is a picture of it on Andersons Web Page under Powerpipes. I spoke with the Tech "Rick" about my problems...... (high rpm surge) he said I need a 255 lph in tank pump and a external T-Rex, he said the NOS pump can't keep up. Rick also said I need the 4:1 calibration disc instead of the 6:1 (regardless of what I've read i.e. 6:1) and set the fuel pressure back to 40 psi. I ordered the T-Rex and the recalibration disc. I have to call the previous owner to find out what the in tank pump is. (and try not to swear at him......lol)

Rick said he was surpised I had not blown a head gasket or fried a piston. The head is o-ringed so I guess I am lucky (lucky I still have pistons). I will do a leak down test just in case. That should solve the high rpm surge, Rich said the low rpm surge is probably cam, he explained how to set car up.

Disconnect the idle air control (he called it something else) and set the idle at 900-950 rpm with the throttle body screw (engine warm), then toggle the ignition. Connect the tps to a meter and set it between .9 and .95 (if it won't move enough, slot the holes. Tighten up the tps and hook up the iac.

So I have some new ideas and a much lighter wallet (by the time the parts get to my door it should cost me close to 2000 CDN, anything we order from the States costs about double ...... considering our dollar has similiar buying power in our respective countries.... it sucks.......

You know what wierd is.... Fort McMurray has the largest open pit mine in the world, largest truck and shovels in the world, state of the art upgrading process systems, produces 25% of Canada's oil and no speed shops or dyno's........ o yeah....... the ratio of men to women is like 5:1.

95mustanggt....... cry me a river, I feel really bad about your good weather.....lol

Jay

Mach 1 · 08-15-2001, 04:25 AM

I just got back from Cold Lake and I miss that great summer weather! GA summers blow. When its 7:00 pm and your dripping sweat standing in your garage not moving, its time to relocate.
After that trip, I decided to move North again. Ill put up with the cold winter for an enjoyable summer.

By the way, Edmonton rocks, and so do Canadien woman!!

------------------
1993 GT/AOD
'93 Mustang GT

moosejaw · 08-15-2001, 06:12 AM

Great deal. I use the Vortech super bypass and just dump it (cause its before my meter) and it works great. You will be close on fuel. May as well change the in tank pump also, to be safe and confident.

Rick Anderson is a great technical resource and he will help anyone given the time. Good luck again and keep the updates flowing.

Mike

------------------
Live near St.Louis?
Check out Mustang Muscle and Dyno in High Ridge, MO
Check out my ride.

95mustanggt · 08-15-2001, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lawless:
You know what wierd is.... Fort McMurray has the largest open pit mine in the world, largest truck and shovels in the world, state of the art upgrading process systems, produces 25% of Canada's oil and no speed shops or dyno's........ o yeah....... the ratio of men to women is like 5:1.

95mustanggt....... cry me a river, I feel really bad about your good weather.....lol

Jay

You forgot to say that The oil sands contain more oil than all of the Middle eastern countries combined, and that some of those mining trucks contain incredible amounts of technology and Horsepower in them (3400+ HP I believe).

Geez, you don't feel sorry for me?!? (here the sarcasim now) the Heat is SO bad, I mean it's hot and sunny all the time, I have no snowy parking lots to do doughnuts in at night or anything.

------------------
1995 Mustang GT

Lawless · 08-15-2001, 12:45 PM

Question:

I have a 190 lph in tank...... that combined with the T-Rex...... is that enough ?

Thanks..... Jay

Lawless · 08-16-2001, 01:01 PM

Just keeping myself on the first page !

andy669 · 08-16-2001, 07:01 PM

Like Moosejaw said, Anderson is the authority on blowers. I would listen to him. One things for sure, if you get the 255 and the T-Rex and youre still having problems, you know it sure isnt for the lack of fuel! Listen to Rick, you wont be sorry.
andy

moosejaw · 08-18-2001, 12:01 AM

I think the 190l/h is borderline. I ran a 190l intank, 255 external and 36# injectors with the Procharger and very similar combo to yours. The car made a lot of power but was almost out of fuel and injector at 5500rpm. When I stepped up to the 331 I got the Aeromotive complete setup cause I knew it was going to be short on fuel.

Remember too much fuel is OK, too little....

Mike

------------------
Live near St.Louis?
Check out Mustang Muscle and Dyno in High Ridge, MO
Check out my ride.

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08-13-2001, 06:10 PM	#17 (permalink)
andy669 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Moline Il Posts: 901	Well Jay, to answer youre one question, you do have a pro-m maf. (like you originally thought) And yes, the 77's are excellent meters. As everyone here is going to tell you, the change in fuel pressure is only going to last so long. Before too long the computer is going to adapt. It sounds to me like you are having fuel problems. If thats the case, getting some type of fuel management system would give you good driveability along with performance. You mentioned that you had already tried a superchip. Well, a chip is only as good as the tuner who burned it. Call JMS, they know what they are doing. Or go all out and get a PMS or EPEC or something like that. good luck andy ------------------ 3 Black 94 GT Vert. AODE/TKO conversion, 3:73's, ported X-305's, GT40 manifolds, 75mm TB, 30lbers, PMS, 300 horse Top Gun wet kit, and all the other little stuff

08-13-2001, 08:09 PM	#18 (permalink)
Lawless Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Fort McMurray, Alberta, Canada Posts: 24	Mike, Chris, Andy & others...... I brought the fuel pressure up to 58 psi static with no noticeable improvement. I returned it back to 48 psi. I connected a vacuum pump to the top port of the HKS Bypass Valve (the one manifold vacuum was connected to, the one HKS told me to connect it to)........ wouldn't hold vacuum (vacuum leak), the valve never moved. I then hooked the pump to the bottom port and at 13 HG the valve began to open. I tried the adjustment bolt and all that did was control the speed of the release (once there was less then 13 HG). All the way out meant the valve closed faster, in slower. Something must be wrong here, sounds like I need new valve. The oulet faced the wrong way anyway and well the missing nipple thing. What should I buy ? It also sounds like I need a power pipe with inlet for the bypass valve. What kind should I buy ?. I'd like to keep the MAP in the fender. Could this have anything to do with my "low speed surge", it does not sound like it would effect the high speed one ? Basically the way it was operating..... the valve was closed all the time and I had a minor vacuum leak. I'll call JMS and ask them some questions. Does anyone know their number ? Do they have a toll free one ? I need to eat this week........lol Jay

08-14-2001, 09:57 AM	#21 (permalink)
moosejaw Registered Member Join Date: Apr 1999 Location: St.Louis,MO Posts: 274	So the bottom port made it work right. Ok thats good. But we still need it routed back to the blower inlet. The reason is, once the air is measured by the air meter you need to keep this air in the intake pipe/blower pipe. Otherwise when the bypass dumps your motor will go rich. Yes I know you are/were lean but I kinda figured something was up with the bypass. It is probable that at idle (with the bypass not opening) and low load the R-trim is pushing in more air than the motor can handle or need. Getting another bypass and setting it to open sooner 4-7" will help the off idle surge. You can allow a bypass to "dump" the way you have it, if and only if the air meter comes after the bypass. This technique prevents metered air from being dumped out because only the air going to the motor gets measured. This is very difficult to engineer on your blower due to limited distance of piping. Driver side mounted blowers are better suited for this type of configuration. I have my blow off set up this way and you would not believe how much air discharges at idle. You could dry your hands with it! The high rpm surge you heard and felt was most likely due to the bypass not opening. Lifting the throttle a little at high rpm can shoot the boost up at the throttle blade causing the unwanted pressure waves that make everything shudder. Check out Anderson Ford for a nice discharge tube, power pipe and bypass combo for Vortech blowers. One neat package that fits well. You can retain the Maf in the fender-well with these pipes. There is a link to them on the links page/after market section. Your vacuum leak seems to have been partly due to the bypass. With a new bypass you could lower your fuel pressure back to what you started with (40ish). Then with adjusting the bypass for drive-ablity things should be good. Anderson is also an authority on getting blower cars to run. They could fill in any thing I may have missed. I'm not sure if you need a PMS but having one can never hurt. It is nice to be able to add or subtract fuel+timing while in boost. Kinda weird but I have been to Edmonton, Redwater, Jasper..etc Alberta. Once you leave Edmonton there is very little support. Good luck. Keep us posted. Mike ------------------ Live near St.Louis? Check out Mustang Muscle and Dyno in High Ridge, MO Check out my ride.

08-14-2001, 05:53 PM	#23 (permalink)
Lawless Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Fort McMurray, Alberta, Canada Posts: 24	Update: I ordered the Anderson Power Pipe (part number # AF-0106)and a super bypass. There is a picture of it on Andersons Web Page under Powerpipes. I spoke with the Tech "Rick" about my problems...... (high rpm surge) he said I need a 255 lph in tank pump and a external T-Rex, he said the NOS pump can't keep up. Rick also said I need the 4:1 calibration disc instead of the 6:1 (regardless of what I've read i.e. 6:1) and set the fuel pressure back to 40 psi. I ordered the T-Rex and the recalibration disc. I have to call the previous owner to find out what the in tank pump is. (and try not to swear at him......lol) Rick said he was surpised I had not blown a head gasket or fried a piston. The head is o-ringed so I guess I am lucky (lucky I still have pistons). I will do a leak down test just in case. That should solve the high rpm surge, Rich said the low rpm surge is probably cam, he explained how to set car up. Disconnect the idle air control (he called it something else) and set the idle at 900-950 rpm with the throttle body screw (engine warm), then toggle the ignition. Connect the tps to a meter and set it between .9 and .95 (if it won't move enough, slot the holes. Tighten up the tps and hook up the iac. So I have some new ideas and a much lighter wallet (by the time the parts get to my door it should cost me close to 2000 CDN, anything we order from the States costs about double ...... considering our dollar has similiar buying power in our respective countries.... it sucks....... You know what wierd is.... Fort McMurray has the largest open pit mine in the world, largest truck and shovels in the world, state of the art upgrading process systems, produces 25% of Canada's oil and no speed shops or dyno's........ o yeah....... the ratio of men to women is like 5:1. 95mustanggt....... cry me a river, I feel really bad about your good weather.....lol Jay

08-15-2001, 04:25 AM	#24 (permalink)
Mach 1 Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Location: Georgia Posts: 3,864	I just got back from Cold Lake and I miss that great summer weather! GA summers blow. When its 7:00 pm and your dripping sweat standing in your garage not moving, its time to relocate. After that trip, I decided to move North again. Ill put up with the cold winter for an enjoyable summer. By the way, Edmonton rocks, and so do Canadien woman!! ------------------ 1993 GT/AOD '93 Mustang GT

08-15-2001, 06:12 AM	#25 (permalink)
moosejaw Registered Member Join Date: Apr 1999 Location: St.Louis,MO Posts: 274	Great deal. I use the Vortech super bypass and just dump it (cause its before my meter) and it works great. You will be close on fuel. May as well change the in tank pump also, to be safe and confident. Rick Anderson is a great technical resource and he will help anyone given the time. Good luck again and keep the updates flowing. Mike ------------------ Live near St.Louis? Check out Mustang Muscle and Dyno in High Ridge, MO Check out my ride.

08-15-2001, 12:45 PM	#27 (permalink)
Lawless Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Fort McMurray, Alberta, Canada Posts: 24	Question: I have a 190 lph in tank...... that combined with the T-Rex...... is that enough ? Thanks..... Jay

08-16-2001, 01:01 PM	#28 (permalink)
Lawless Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Fort McMurray, Alberta, Canada Posts: 24	Just keeping myself on the first page !

08-16-2001, 07:01 PM	#29 (permalink)
andy669 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Moline Il Posts: 901	Like Moosejaw said, Anderson is the authority on blowers. I would listen to him. One things for sure, if you get the 255 and the T-Rex and youre still having problems, you know it sure isnt for the lack of fuel! Listen to Rick, you wont be sorry. andy

08-18-2001, 12:01 AM	#30 (permalink)
moosejaw Registered Member Join Date: Apr 1999 Location: St.Louis,MO Posts: 274	I think the 190l/h is borderline. I ran a 190l intank, 255 external and 36# injectors with the Procharger and very similar combo to yours. The car made a lot of power but was almost out of fuel and injector at 5500rpm. When I stepped up to the 331 I got the Aeromotive complete setup cause I knew it was going to be short on fuel. Remember too much fuel is OK, too little.... Mike ------------------ Live near St.Louis? Check out Mustang Muscle and Dyno in High Ridge, MO Check out my ride.