Detonation + High Temp

richd · 10-04-2001, 02:07 AM

I've been reading some previous posts concerning detonation and cooling system troubles, but need some clarification. Should the top of the radiator be hot when engine is at least at normal temps? Mine is cool at the top and only starts getting hot if I feel the fins about 4 or 5 inches down the front or where the inlet hose attaches.

When I got the car (89 LX 5.0) ~2 months ago the temp guage read just below midway and detonation occurred during moderate throttle. Now the temp guage regularly hits midway and even approaches the next marker. Detonation occurs at even light throttle now.

The plugs look ok (Autolite Plats #25) I think. The gap may be a little big, but I didn't have a guage handy to check.

I can't accurately check the timing due to a lack of balancer markings. However, I have made a few counter clockwise adjustments to the distributor to try and retard the timing a bit. Is that the correct direction?

BTW, I'm running 93 octane right now (I used 87 once by mistake and cringed every time I accelerated). Even has problems with 94 octane (Sunoco).

Sorry for the long post and thanks for helping,

Rich D.
Bone Stock 89 LX 5.0

84_GT350 · 10-04-2001, 03:02 AM

Are you sure it's detonating and not just missing? I mean does it feel like the whole car's shaking or just knocking? Sounds like you adjusted the distributor correctly. It's possible you might have pushed it back too far...it's hard to say. About how many degrees would you estimate you rotated the cap?

------------------
1984 1/2 GT350 (#842 Hatchback w/ T-tops), 302HO, Comp cams Xtreme Energy cam, Carter 625cfm carb, Weiand Stealth intake, MSD distributor, MSD coil, FMS 9mm wires, 1 5/8" MAC unequal shorties, 2 1/2" MAC Prochamber H-pipe, Flowmaster 2 chambers, KYBs, 16"x8" 4 lug Cobra Rs, Falken 245/45ZR16s

So I pushed it up to 110,
That flathead motor was about to give in,
I crossed my fingers and prayed to the lord,
Don't let me down you fuct up ford!"

"5-Oh Ford" by The Reverend Horton Heat

richd · 10-04-2001, 10:32 AM

I don't feel anything like shaking. But I do hear a sporadic ticking sound which increases in intensity at larger throttle openings. Do you think I should try advancing it a little and observing the differences?

I turned the distributor probably a total of 2 to 3 degrees. It's hard to tell because it was tight (even when the retaining wedge could be moved freely) and I would initially turn it too far. I really need one of those piston stops so I can get some timing marks.

Anyway, I did a little testing last night. Not much, because it was late. With the engine cool and the car parked on an incline facing up, I took off the radiator cap and started the engine. The radiator level was about 1-2 inches below top. After a few minutes of idling it slowly rose until it started spilling out of the neck. It wasn't hot, the return hose (top) was only slightly warm.

Earlier I had gone for a ride, and when the temp guage went above the middle marker (200*F mark?) I pulled over and felt the radiator and return hose. Return hose was hot and the top of the radiator was cool. I remember on other cars the radiator being hot everywhere (except maybe at the bottom).

I'm thinking of getting a new rad cap, thermostat and flushing the radiator with muriatic(sp?) acid. I have no idea when the prev owner last did maintenance on the cooling system, so maybe some things just aren't up to snuff anymore.

Thanks for the reply!

Rich D.

richd · 10-04-2001, 10:38 AM

Oh, one more thing. I noticed the port on the neck to the reservoir is capped, and there's no reservoir in sight! Shouldn't there be one? I can't even tell where it would fit.

Could that be part of the problem? Maybe too much pressure is building up?

Thanks again...

Rich D.

PKRWUD · 10-04-2001, 11:52 AM

Okay, let's address this as two problems: overheating and detonation.

Overheating:
replace the radiator cap with a 15 pound Stant lever cap. Replace the t-stat with a Ford OEM 192 degree t-stat. DO NOT buy an aftermarket t-stat. Buy it from Ford. Flush your cooling system. Buy a puke tank. The cooling system relies on having an overflow tank (puke tank). The heated coolant expands, and surges into the tank when hot. When the engine cools, it siphons the coolant back into the radiator. If there is no tank, you will eventually start to regularly run low on coolant. Install a coolant/water mixture with a ratio of NO MORE than 25% coolant/75% water. More coolant is not necessary, and will make the engine run hotter.

Detonation:
get your engine as close as you can to TDC. remove the #1 spark plug, and insert a pencil into the spark plug hole. With a breaker bar attached to the crank bolt, rock the engine back and forth, watching the pencil, until the pencil reaches a point where it no longer moves up or down. This is true TDC. Mark your balancer right at the pointer. Measure 15mm to the right of your new TDC mark on the balancer, and make another mark. This is 10 degrees BTDC. Now check your timing, and adjust accordingly. This, combined with a good cooling system, should solve your problem.

Take care
~Chris

------------------
Retired Moderator
MustangNet

My site: JimPorterRacing

RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR

HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

PKRWUD · 10-04-2001, 11:57 AM

Also, replace your plugs. Do not try and re-gap your old ones. The electrode in a platinum plug is as thin as a hair, and becomes extremely brittle after use. If you try and re-gap them, you will likely break one or more of the electrodes. The worst part is that the break usually occurs below the visable line, so you don't even know it.

Take care
~Chris

------------------
Retired Moderator
MustangNet

My site: JimPorterRacing

RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR

HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

richd · 10-04-2001, 02:15 PM

Wow! Thanks! This is exactly what I needed.

Just one question...are you sure I should only use 25% antifreeze? I'm just concerned because the weather can be pretty cold here.

I have ACDelco R43TS plugs along with Pep Boys special cap/rotor/"Premium" Wires.

I'll probably wind up working on this Saturday and/or Sunday (My friends birthday then my birthday). I'll keep you posted.

Thanks again!

Rich D.

PKRWUD · 10-04-2001, 08:11 PM

Good point. Go ahead and use 30-35% anti-freeze, but no more.

Take care
~Chris

------------------
Retired Moderator
MustangNet

My site: JimPorterRacing

RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR

HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

richd · 10-10-2001, 06:52 PM

Update:

On Friday while driving home from work I stalled the car in an intersection, very embarassing. Anyway, I try to start it back up and POOF! Big puff of white smoke from near the battery. Long story short, the solenoid relay was shorting + batt terminal to the body frying the 10guage body to battery ground wire.

So I say to myself "Ok, these problems WILL go away this weekend."

Saturday morning I pick up the necessary parts. I replace the relay and fix up the wiring a bit (some wires were brittle and cracking). Then I pull the plugs/wires/cap. Using the pencil method, I find TDC for cylinder #1...using cylinder #6. Turns out #6 is TDC after its exhaust stroke and its easier to manipulate the pencil. Anyway, I rotate the engine and take a real good look at the balancer. Voila! Timing marks. Rusted over timing marks. I rotate the engine 180* and take a wire brush to the balancer. Now I can read them easily.

Now I put the new plugs/wires/cap/rotor in and start the engine. I hook up the timing light, 30*!!! Ooops, forgot to pull the shorting connector. Check it again, 20*!!!

So I set it to 10*, install a Stant 16lb rad cap and a coolant reservoir. Runs great and stays around 195*-200*.

It seems a little weak up top in 2nd gear though. It definitely needs a new air filter and probably a fuel filter.

I'm also going to put the new t-stat I bought in, but I want to do the hoses and a flush at the same time.

Thanks again for all of your help,

Rich D.

PKRWUD · 10-13-2001, 02:15 AM

As long as you run 91 octane or higher, you can advance your timing for more "pep". Do it in 2 degree increments.

-C

------------------
Retired Moderator
MustangNet

My site: JimPorterRacing

RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR

HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

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10-04-2001, 02:07 AM	#1
richd Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Edison, NJ, USA Posts: 125	Detonation + High Temp I've been reading some previous posts concerning detonation and cooling system troubles, but need some clarification. Should the top of the radiator be hot when engine is at least at normal temps? Mine is cool at the top and only starts getting hot if I feel the fins about 4 or 5 inches down the front or where the inlet hose attaches. When I got the car (89 LX 5.0) ~2 months ago the temp guage read just below midway and detonation occurred during moderate throttle. Now the temp guage regularly hits midway and even approaches the next marker. Detonation occurs at even light throttle now. The plugs look ok (Autolite Plats #25) I think. The gap may be a little big, but I didn't have a guage handy to check. I can't accurately check the timing due to a lack of balancer markings. However, I have made a few counter clockwise adjustments to the distributor to try and retard the timing a bit. Is that the correct direction? BTW, I'm running 93 octane right now (I used 87 once by mistake and cringed every time I accelerated). Even has problems with 94 octane (Sunoco). Sorry for the long post and thanks for helping, Rich D. Bone Stock 89 LX 5.0

10-04-2001, 03:02 AM	#2
84_GT350 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 1999 Location: Overland Park, KS, USA Posts: 1,631	Are you sure it's detonating and not just missing? I mean does it feel like the whole car's shaking or just knocking? Sounds like you adjusted the distributor correctly. It's possible you might have pushed it back too far...it's hard to say. About how many degrees would you estimate you rotated the cap? ------------------ 1984 1/2 GT350 (#842 Hatchback w/ T-tops), 302HO, Comp cams Xtreme Energy cam, Carter 625cfm carb, Weiand Stealth intake, MSD distributor, MSD coil, FMS 9mm wires, 1 5/8" MAC unequal shorties, 2 1/2" MAC Prochamber H-pipe, Flowmaster 2 chambers, KYBs, 16"x8" 4 lug Cobra Rs, Falken 245/45ZR16s So I pushed it up to 110, That flathead motor was about to give in, I crossed my fingers and prayed to the lord, Don't let me down you fuct up ford!" "5-Oh Ford" by The Reverend Horton Heat

10-04-2001, 10:32 AM	#3
richd Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Edison, NJ, USA Posts: 125	I don't feel anything like shaking. But I do hear a sporadic ticking sound which increases in intensity at larger throttle openings. Do you think I should try advancing it a little and observing the differences? I turned the distributor probably a total of 2 to 3 degrees. It's hard to tell because it was tight (even when the retaining wedge could be moved freely) and I would initially turn it too far. I really need one of those piston stops so I can get some timing marks. Anyway, I did a little testing last night. Not much, because it was late. With the engine cool and the car parked on an incline facing up, I took off the radiator cap and started the engine. The radiator level was about 1-2 inches below top. After a few minutes of idling it slowly rose until it started spilling out of the neck. It wasn't hot, the return hose (top) was only slightly warm. Earlier I had gone for a ride, and when the temp guage went above the middle marker (200*F mark?) I pulled over and felt the radiator and return hose. Return hose was hot and the top of the radiator was cool. I remember on other cars the radiator being hot everywhere (except maybe at the bottom). I'm thinking of getting a new rad cap, thermostat and flushing the radiator with muriatic(sp?) acid. I have no idea when the prev owner last did maintenance on the cooling system, so maybe some things just aren't up to snuff anymore. Thanks for the reply! Rich D.

10-04-2001, 10:38 AM	#4
richd Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Edison, NJ, USA Posts: 125	Oh, one more thing. I noticed the port on the neck to the reservoir is capped, and there's no reservoir in sight! Shouldn't there be one? I can't even tell where it would fit. Could that be part of the problem? Maybe too much pressure is building up? Thanks again... Rich D.

10-04-2001, 11:52 AM	#5
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Okay, let's address this as two problems: overheating and detonation. Overheating: replace the radiator cap with a 15 pound Stant lever cap. Replace the t-stat with a Ford OEM 192 degree t-stat. DO NOT buy an aftermarket t-stat. Buy it from Ford. Flush your cooling system. Buy a puke tank. The cooling system relies on having an overflow tank (puke tank). The heated coolant expands, and surges into the tank when hot. When the engine cools, it siphons the coolant back into the radiator. If there is no tank, you will eventually start to regularly run low on coolant. Install a coolant/water mixture with a ratio of NO MORE than 25% coolant/75% water. More coolant is not necessary, and will make the engine run hotter. Detonation: get your engine as close as you can to TDC. remove the #1 spark plug, and insert a pencil into the spark plug hole. With a breaker bar attached to the crank bolt, rock the engine back and forth, watching the pencil, until the pencil reaches a point where it no longer moves up or down. This is true TDC. Mark your balancer right at the pointer. Measure 15mm to the right of your new TDC mark on the balancer, and make another mark. This is 10 degrees BTDC. Now check your timing, and adjust accordingly. This, combined with a good cooling system, should solve your problem. Take care ~Chris ------------------ Retired Moderator MustangNet My site: JimPorterRacing RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

10-04-2001, 11:57 AM	#6
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Also, replace your plugs. Do not try and re-gap your old ones. The electrode in a platinum plug is as thin as a hair, and becomes extremely brittle after use. If you try and re-gap them, you will likely break one or more of the electrodes. The worst part is that the break usually occurs below the visable line, so you don't even know it. Take care ~Chris ------------------ Retired Moderator MustangNet My site: JimPorterRacing RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

10-04-2001, 02:15 PM	#7
richd Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Edison, NJ, USA Posts: 125	Wow! Thanks! This is exactly what I needed. Just one question...are you sure I should only use 25% antifreeze? I'm just concerned because the weather can be pretty cold here. I have ACDelco R43TS plugs along with Pep Boys special cap/rotor/"Premium" Wires. I'll probably wind up working on this Saturday and/or Sunday (My friends birthday then my birthday). I'll keep you posted. Thanks again! Rich D.

10-04-2001, 08:11 PM	#8
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Good point. Go ahead and use 30-35% anti-freeze, but no more. Take care ~Chris ------------------ Retired Moderator MustangNet My site: JimPorterRacing RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

10-10-2001, 06:52 PM	#9
richd Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Edison, NJ, USA Posts: 125	Update: On Friday while driving home from work I stalled the car in an intersection, very embarassing. Anyway, I try to start it back up and POOF! Big puff of white smoke from near the battery. Long story short, the solenoid relay was shorting + batt terminal to the body frying the 10guage body to battery ground wire. So I say to myself "Ok, these problems WILL go away this weekend." Saturday morning I pick up the necessary parts. I replace the relay and fix up the wiring a bit (some wires were brittle and cracking). Then I pull the plugs/wires/cap. Using the pencil method, I find TDC for cylinder #1...using cylinder #6. Turns out #6 is TDC after its exhaust stroke and its easier to manipulate the pencil. Anyway, I rotate the engine and take a real good look at the balancer. Voila! Timing marks. Rusted over timing marks. I rotate the engine 180* and take a wire brush to the balancer. Now I can read them easily. Now I put the new plugs/wires/cap/rotor in and start the engine. I hook up the timing light, 30!!! Ooops, forgot to pull the shorting connector. Check it again, 20!!! So I set it to 10, install a Stant 16lb rad cap and a coolant reservoir. Runs great and stays around 195-200*. It seems a little weak up top in 2nd gear though. It definitely needs a new air filter and probably a fuel filter. I'm also going to put the new t-stat I bought in, but I want to do the hoses and a flush at the same time. Thanks again for all of your help, Rich D.

10-13-2001, 02:15 AM	#10
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	As long as you run 91 octane or higher, you can advance your timing for more "pep". Do it in 2 degree increments. -C ------------------ Retired Moderator MustangNet My site: JimPorterRacing RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!