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Tfs Stage 1 To X-303 Back To Tfs Stage 1
OK here is whats up...
92 lLX 331, 9:0.1 compression AFR 185's edelbrock rpm intake 70mm TB 75mm MAF 24lb injectors adjustable regualtor TFS stage 1 .499/.510 221/226 @ .050 duration 1 5/8 equal length shorties h-pipes with singles cats 4.10's with Tremec aftermarked coil It makes some pretty damn good power on it plants pretty good to the pavement although, yes it spins most of first and lots in second gear.......i decided to throw the X-303 in...figuring it will be a lil more awesome in performance...well it was not...it actually caused me to lose power.....why? I have no clue...any ideas from anyone????? I went back to the TFS stage 1 and it kicks *** again. feed me some thoughts.....I wanted to look more into it but I only have one more week then I go on ship for 6 months to the mid-east......her i come Afghanistan!!!!! |
How do you have the cam installed? is it installed straight up? Most Motorsport cams run best installed straight up,all the alphabet cams run best this way,also your compression is way to low to run that cam,unless you are running juice or a blower,most NMRA/FFW Renegade cars run that cam or something close to it,since it sounds like you are running all motor 112 centerline cams do not like all motor combos,take a E303 for example lot of people think that cam is a wimp well it is not the cam works well with all motor combos,because of it's centerline which is only 110,I would install that cam straight up before I pull it,and run it that way,also make sure your electronics are up to the task also,and remember this bigger is not always better
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see....maybe i screwed up!!!
i installed the x-cam 4 degress advanced......a buddy of mine said try putting it back to straight up and I said good point but if it still has sub-par performance then i did the switch for nothing.....the tfs cam was in 4 advanced before the x-cam delima but i re-installed the tfs straight this time for more on the upper end and i took it for a test run a few hours ago and it is much better....thank god......hoping for 13.1's on street tires tomorrow......@ carlsbad i guess.....
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straight up is always a good starting point,my concern is your compression ratio with those heads,those AFR 185's are some big heads and they need air in them moving around,quick question when you switched the tranny out did you switch the computer out also? If you did not you are going to notice small pinging at the track tomorrow,in the upper rpm range because your computer is going to want to pull timing out thinking it is time to shift the tranny,maybe,maybe not if it was me I would get call up engine shop like Cam Motion,BES Racing,Fox Lake,USA Racing Engines and Glidden Racing Engines and shell out the bucks for a custom grind job,remember TFS makes killer cylinder heads,you don't see Comp Cams building cylinder heads do you? just my 2 pennies good luck on the track tomorrow but watch your plugs and listen for detonation at upper rpm's
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damn....
see.....it did ping/detonate at low speed rpms with the auto in it with the tfs cam and the heads on the stock block and it blew the head gaskets within a couple of thousand miles.........it still has the auto computer and i have not noticed the ping/detanate yet......i am suprised it runs as good as it does.......but yeah it will tack on a couple of hundred miles on it over the next week or so then it will sit for six months then in december I will obtain that 5 speed computer......i have heard that the aod computer screws with the ignition spark....spark advance..possibly what you were talking about........i have a air fuel ratio guage that hooks inline with the MAF sensor...will that help at all......it is a really cool piece from what i was told...thanks bro
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I see we are both up late tonight no biggie nothing I like more than helping a fellow Mustanger,this air fuel ratio can you change it? If you cannot change it then why bother looking at it,unless you have like a PMS,Extender,EPEC,or some other kind of stand alone fuel system,if you really get tired of dealing with the BS you can always put a carb on that bad boy not recommended if you live in a cold enviroment but power wise you would be in the high 450-490 range with a carb and 1 point of compression raised,if she does not ping on you at the track tomorrow watch the nose to see if it dips on you under acceleration,if it does abort the run,and just wait until you get back from where you are going and get an A9L (5-speed computer) auto computers are just a little to aggressive and are hard to override,once again good luck at the track watch your plugs,and try to keep your ears open,I want to keep getting post from you about your car later man
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the air/fuel ratio adjuster
that piece i have it adjustable and also has the setting on their to where you can set voltage on the MAF sensor.....i have not yet connected it because i just disconnected and sold a Ford motorsport SVO rpm extender with air/fuel controls on it to a good buddy of mine....i was gonna keep it but i got a good deal on it and passed it on to him because he needs more RPM than i do....but yeah i may head to ecology first thing in the morning and see if i can get lucky and spot a 5 speed computer and bolt it in (of course if i am lucky) and be set for whatever but from the way ecology is..there probably won't be one there.....actually i will take a trip there in the morning before the track...what do you think they charge for it.....20 bucks maybe?...i am hoping for a 13.4 - 13.1 at the track......the car moves pretty damn good...i also just threw on my 3 inch diameter crank pulley for a lil more kick just for the track......we'll see and i will definately see how she performs tomorrow.....keep ya posted for sure!!!!
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We'll just have to wait till tomorrow to see how we're running. No really though I ain't gonna run nothing impressive if I don't get some hook. I will be just checkin' the MPH. I am hoping for around 113 mph on the pep boy tires I gotz. That would be cool if someone had some slicks, I would almost be willing to let it ride to get a good run in there.
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on my way....to the track this morning
go pick up the homies and go to the track....just installed a new FMS driveshaft....the last one was vibrating...i think it was because one of the weights fell off....plus i scored it from the mufflers when it was on the lift last year.........cross my fingers
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I have heard reports on those aluminum driveshafts for not weight being off,but some are not staright,check it for straightness,good luck at the track,the other brother ByrneCH 113 mph in the 1/4 you turn 113 mph you have one heckuva top end on that motor,good luck to you also,sounds like you all have some pretty stout cars there,wish you all well and be careful gents
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track times and big problem
well....i made 3 passes at the track....traction loss was pretty obvious......
my first pass was 13.8 @103mph with .660 reaction second pass was 13.7 @ 103mph with a .610 reaction third pass was awesome....13.5 @103 with a .505 reaction.... i probably had the best reaction for the day.....i did no power shifting and had traction loss in first and second...second was only brief though on the third pass as i crossed the finish line i looked at my oil pressure and there was 0 oil pressure.......i coasted back to the pit area and checked my guage and it was ok....then i had a buddy look at the mechanical line and as i started the motor for a couple second there was no oil feeding through the mechanical line.....so i said S$#t...i pulled the distributor off to see if i could see the pump shaft and its there but not sure if it is twisted or broke.......i saved the motor and will do a inspection when i pull the oil pan off......i did use the melling shaft that was supplied and should have bought a ARP piece i guess............i just got the car back an hour ago.......it is 3:35pm sunday!!! |
Sorry to hear about the problems, at least you caught it before it really messed anything up. I was honestly hoping you would come back and post some better numbers than you were anticipating in the other post.
I do have a couple of questions for you though. Why 9:1 compression unless your setting up for a power adder? If your staying NA, I would think something in the 10's would have been alot better. |
well that blows Ballistic331,so have you found out what it was yet? I hope for ease of replacement it is just the shaft then you can get it back up and running no time soon,13's granny shifting is not bad bro,as any gearhead knows powershifting is always good for 3-4 tenths,anyway keep us posted man
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fix it in december
hey whats up.....the car has 9 to 1 compression because i opted to go with it because it is my TOTAL reliable daily driver....plus it has the ROL head gaskets which is pretty much the thickest head gaskets out there.........in december when i fix the oil pressure problem i will also throw on a set of head gaskets from ford because i hear they are the thinnest and pretty much the strongest........yeah i granny shifted but i was pretty damn fast at it....i power shifted in to 4th gear once and ity was my last pass.....i know for sure i could have gotten my baby 2 to 3 tenths quicker....i was wanting a 13.1 o 13.4 and i was happy with the 13.5 after what happened...........I go on ship for 6 months on June 15th and will return in December.....the car will be garaged until then and thats when i will install that ARP pump shaft and return with sub 13.0 times.......GURANTEED....rememebr i have a relatively small cam in this motor of mine so i know i still can go a lil bigger respectively and the motor will like it...BUT i have tyo find the right cam....any ideas?????/ take care! Chris
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I wanna hit carlsbad again too, I was gonna say you should go too but your leaving.
Something is SERIOUSLY wrong with your motor. 103mph at carlsbad? It should be going 118. My mild 302 goes 107.5 there. Somethings really wrong with your motor. Skyler |
tuning process still
103 is not that bad...especially for the fact that i have not had great tuning done on it yet......i have a feeling i iwll be doing alot of tuning on it over the next year or so......she will get faster...guranteed
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Uhhh you're wrong 103 for a 331 with afrs is ****!! I've seen people with stock heads on a 302 hitting 103. Sky is right something way wrong with your motor. It should hit 12's at LEAST.
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Unless your running 1 degree of timing and 75psi fuel pressure, no amount of tuneing is going to fix it.
SKyler |
But according to Strocked408, tuning a NA combo is easy, might I say childs play, compared to a power adder car:D . It should be easy for you guys to figure out.
Just giving you a hard time 408:D . |
Okay for those that cannot read very well he said it was the first time he had it at the strip,now i do not know what planet you all come from,it takes more than 1 weekend at the dragstrip to tune a car,mind you I think Ballistic does all his own work,at least I think he does I have never met him but it sounds like it,9.1 compression 331 without a great tune 13.5's at 103 and you tuned it yourself how many other's here can say that?.......Probably not very many but that is just my opinion,Yeah I have seen stockers to also turn 103 in the 1/4 but there were a long way from stock,and please do not use the word stock unless you are talking straight off the dealer lot because as we all know you change anything on it,it has lost it's stock status,if you put slicks on it,it is not stock,if you put a K&N in it it is not stock,if it has 3.73 gears it is not stock shall I go on,so please easy with the word stock it really touches a nerve with me thanks LOL have a nice day
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Completely un-tuned, on BALD 225 street tires, on a 104 degree day, in a full weight car my 302 went 13.5@105.8.
Skyler |
I am pretty sure if your car is a Saleen it is not s--ck I mean come on next to a 96 ragtop Mustang a Saleen has the scales screaming "one car at a time" I am not doubting your performance but 13.5's on stock tires is asking a lot of either gatorbacks or Yokohoma's or whatever Saleens came with, 13.5's is a pretty healthy launch for stock tires,especially bald ones,last I checked only bald tires that grip at the drag strip are slicks,once more not doubting you but 13.5's on bald tires is asking a lot
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My car was not stock, It had heads/cam/intake, but it certainly didnt have this guys setup.
Somethings majorly wrong. Do you really have a 408? Skyler |
351W 4.030 with a 4 in ch stroke equals 408 correct,LOL seriously it is a Panhandle Performance stroked 351W(408) Victor Jr heads,Super Victor intake with a 850 AED carb,solid roller cam with .621/.627 lift with 254/260 at 050 getting rearend replaced right now and some other parts trying to get it certified for the 10's,but can't find the proper bellhousing that does not cost a fortune,what is wrong with his combo is compression is entirely too low for AFR heads,I think he might need to mill them a little to raise the compression maybe,or change that head gasket like he said could be a number of things
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Im sorry, you guys are ******* ignorant if you think thats half decent. Did either one of you even graduate 8th grade english?
If you say you dont know what your talking about that'd be one thing, but you come off all knowing, and you think 103mph on a 185 headed 331 is ok? C'mon. Im sorry. Btw, Coherant complete sentences would be nice. Skyler |
Hate to burst your bubble, 13.5@103 is nothing to sneeze at. I suggest you run a few tests on your motor, try to determine WTF is wrong with it. First off, do a compression test. With your cam/compression combo, you should be getting 180 across the board. Second, did you pull any plugs after your runs? That will help determine if you need to raise/lower the fuel pressure.
Did you assemble the motor yourself? Oil pump failure on such a fresh motor is not a common occurance. possible you wiped out a bearing already? I'm not tryin to rain on your parade here, just tryin to steer a brotha in the right direction. On a side note: When were you at carlsbad? My buddy has his bone stock LX there, 13.9@97mph. Beat up Red LX with a blue hood. |
I'm not bashing anyone here, but I would think that a 331 (even with 9:1 comp) with a set of 185 AFRs, good cam, etc. should be better than 13.5-13.7 @ 103. The zero oil pressure thing isn't good either. Hopefully you'll get her diagnosed and be able to get running strong.
Not to add salt to the wound, but my stock suspension, stock bottom end 302 LX has gone 106 a few times on drag radials, with very mild cam (put in wrong at 4 degrees retard), engine bearings about shot, fuel washing down two of the cylinders and some other stuff. This is meant comparison purposes, i.e. your 331 should be faster. Good luck, E |
Sideways,I am sorry to say but no bone "stock" LX ever turned a 13 anything,you know it always makes me laugh looking at and reading these boards,because it is easy to criticize and knock someone's combo. How many of you here have ever been to a FFW or NMRA event? I have been to numerous events,I have been to FFW Houston,Ennis,NMRA at Bowling Green,and Mid Michigan talking to the guys that go fast. T hey do not share everything with you,but they will tell you what is and what is not fast,the 2 classes I really admire are Factory Stock and Trophy Stock now called Street Warrior because they do run fast with limited parts,NMRA Factory Stock car run 11's but it is with aftermarket heads and intake,they have to run stock cams,and that is "bone stock" cams and their compression is not that much over stock,but they have a heckuva lot more into the complete package than just engine parts. So what is my point use the word "stock" very carefully and get off from behind a computer and get to the track and talk to the fast guys,because we all know there are no NMRA or FFW events in California.
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Ballistic raise the compression ratio when you get your car up and running so everyone can have a nice day,because this is getting to the point of being pointless,I remember reading in your post that you did want to keep it streetable and reliability. I thought the hole point of message boards like this was to help,instead of taking pot-shots and questioning about screen names,or trying to show how smart you are. I guess i am just from a different school called the "School Of Hard-Knocks". I just wonder how many LS1 owners and LT1 owners with all that compression they come from the factory with have not had any problems with those pigs? I know quite a few LS1 and LT1 owners who have had spark and knock problems with those pigs.
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Good day,
just registered this morning and read some of the post,some are quite right,some are quite wrong,and some are close,I will not comment on which one is what,like I said I just got here (LOL) but since I know Ballistic 331 personally as I do ByrneCH they are using and doing 2 entirely different approaches,could his compression be too low possibly as we all know compression equals power,could something else be bogging him down very possible,what we have not or even tried to figure it out since he will be out on float starting Saturday,Chris you forgot to mention the wacky air fuel ratio you were getting at Carlsbad,I was at Carlsbad with him this past Saturday,along with ByrneCH,so you know before you all hammer him to bad,get all the facts correct first Stroked408 you bring up good points,but some are wrong also,and last but not least remember gents the AFR is a huge head,if you do not have enough air going through them you will slow down big time,sometimes bigger is not better,especially when it comes to heads,and I think Chris has said he wishes he had gotten AFR 165,but lesson learned time to move on at least now he has a set of heads that he can build around,anyway Chris B we going to the strip or do you have to work this weekend? Chris F we will keep you posted while you are out there fighting the good fight |
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Has he ask for any help, NO. If he did, I'm sure we can and will help him out if he wants it. But with comments like that and coming on here and saying we should all go out and get 331's because 302's are basicly junk, he want get and sympathy from me, just criticism. I really hoped he would run better than the times he original suggested, I even said so. But we all know something is seriously wrong with his car, some have said so, why keep defending him, you know it too, or at least you should. If he wants help from us, just ask. |
fivepointOH
kiss my slow stang FivepointOH..........yeah as you all put it i have a slow stang.......as a matter of fact.....screw all you negative azzwholez........i know what i need to do to improve....my compression is probably under 9 with the ROL's its all good...........actually..we'll see. Some of you thanks for the points and concerns...the rest of you that critisize...you know where to stick the broom stick!!!!!
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Absolutely no flames intended, but there is something wrong with your car. Look at my signature and I run a 13.7 @100mph @3000ft.
I think either your cam was installed wrong or your timing is way off. Either way I hope that you fix it.:) IMO, I dont think raising your compression will solve your problem Maybe your cam is in wrong or your car wont stay in time or something. I have been drag racing for a while so take my word for it...Somethinfg is wrong. Accept it and PM PKRWUD, He will hook you up with the answers...He's a smart man Good luck,:cool: Later, |
Okay this has gotten out of hand,and we all need to take a deep breath here,we all are Mustangers so let's just chill out here,okay first of all remember this is the internet,to some people might appear sarcastic or as a smart-a-- I do not think that is the intent here,I have just heard that AFR 185 heads like compression,and most engine builders I talk to suggest that you mill the heads about down to 54cc to raise the compression on a stock bottom end 302 to 10.1 or 10.5,now when you do that you change a lot of operating characteristics of the engine,so be prepared to tackle the whole thing when this comes up,I am not here to knock no ones combo,because I would not want anyone to knock mine,offer advice if I ask it which I am known to do,but please do not knock it,because I would show you the same respect come on guys we are all on the same side here and that is to blow Chevy's into the weeds and be honest gents we do not worry about SS' and Z28's we are always sizing up Vettes for the kill
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I agree, were all local we should all hook up and goto carlsbad sometime soon.
I was just saying somethings wrong, because something definatly is wrong and I wanted to help you get it sorted out. You got defensive ballistic. I wasnt attacking you, I was trying to point something out to help you out. Can't we all just get along and get our cars running good ;) Skyler |
Mr 5 0 has personally witnessed a "stock" 1987 Mustang 5.0 LX driven to a 13.8, basically off the showroom that day.
Anyway, there is something totally screwed in the combo. That's plain as day. I don't see any traction issues worth noting on a 13.5@103. Not the best in the world, but even with an awesome launch on a drag setup you're talking low 13's to ultra ultra high 12's. You know, the same performance a stock engined 5.0 can turn in. I see nothing wrong with the AFR heads. The 185's don't hurt low end as much as it's being made out to be, you should really learn about them instead of using old school head design thoughts. On a 331, the effect should be even less. I'd like to know the specifications on those pistons. How much dish, how much valve relief? I can calculate your compression ratio accurately. I see nothing wrong with the cam. It's more than enough for a standard compression 331 street motor. |
BTW, I didn't note a fuel pump type in there. I hope you're not running the stock fuel pump???
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Unit5302,
I am not knocking the AFR head,I am just quoting one of the most respected engine builders in the country,and that is Ron Robart from Fox Lake Power Products,he is not a big fan of the AFR head because he says he has found problems with their flow numbers,but at the same time another reputable engine builder Ed Curtis loves the AFR head especially the 165 on stock or near stock street driven 302's,it is all a matter of personal taste and the equipment you decide to run,like Ron and both Ed told me no junk parts,they are all good,but it is some junk combos out there under people hoods,that is all I am saying, oops I just knocked someone combo LOL |
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The dyno's show the AFR 165 and 185 are good heads. So do the dozens of flowbench tests on them. They may not flow as good as the best numbers ever recorded, but I've yet to see a test where they flowed poorly. Really all I'm trying to find out is why his intake/cam/head/stroker is making 270hp when it should be making 370hp. |
this seems to be a good thread worth talking about here. I follow the NMRA Pure Street class pretty close,and what I find so great about the class is these guys are running high 10's with a max 310 cubes,.500 max lift cams,either a long runner fuelie intake,or a dual plane carb intake and are busting off 380-400rwhp,,granted they are also running a cage,dedicated suspension,aftermarket electronics,and what not(what is a "what not?")
Let me see a engine trying to sell or push a particular product? Would that be like a Marine saying we are better than the Army? Bad comparison there sorry Army guys,but it is all a matter of taste. I will say this and I heard it from one of the engine builders mentioned that a certain head porter well 2 certain head porters in the southeast are selling bogus equipment with flow numbers that are no where near what they advertise,and the part that really burns my *** about it,I have no way to take a head to a flow-bench to see if it is legit if I buy a set of heads from either of those 2 which I won't,and I am sure some of us here do not have that access,notice I said some,some of you all may have access to everything but a lot of us don't,so I have to take their word for it. Moral of the story is and I have been racking my brain for a year and half with this is try to match your combo up as best you can,do not set your goals too high,that way less disappointment,and test,test,test I know everyone has heard this one"you do not race dynos and flow benches" you race cars |
By the way sweet looking car Unit5302
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