Total Timing or Computer Timing. What is the deal once and for all!

89FHPLX · 01-27-2002, 12:49 AM

Ok, I run Total timing on my car. I have it set at 35 and the car has no problems. When My friends find out, they go crazy. My timing was set by a Mustang Shop. I didn't know anything about that except that you waste more fuel.

My friends will read this......So what are the advantage's of total timing. And what the difference with the spout on. Will I get more power with the spout off or on?

Is there a HP gain to all this.

Like I said, My car runs strong but I would like some suggestions from more experience Mustang PRO's.

PKRWUD · 01-27-2002, 06:13 AM

That means your base timing is about 11 degrees advanced, which is just about stock. You could improve things.

To answer you questions:

An engines total timing is the combined total of it's base timing (where you set it at idle), it's maximum vacuum advance (if equipped), and it's maximum mechanical advance (if equipped). You will usually find the engine has reached it's total timing by 3000 rpm. For a stock engine, the average total advance is about 34 degrees.

Your Mustang is electronically fuel injected, which means the ECM (the "computer") takes over the job of advancing the timing for you, so you no longer have a vacuum or a mechanical advance. This leaves you with the base timing. The factory recommends it be set at 10 degrees BTDC, so the ECM is programmed to respond like the timing at idle is set to 10 degrees advanced. If you try and change the base timing, the ECM will try and correct it, and you'll end up with a lousy running engine. So, in order to trick the ECM by advancing the base timing, the signal from the distributor to the ECM must be disabled. This is done by removing the spout connector. When the spout connector is removed, the timing you see at idle with a timing light is the real timing, not computer controlled timing. After the timing has been set, you MUST reinstall the spout connector, so that the ECM can control the advance for you. If you leave the spout out, the timing will not advance when the rpm's do, and you will lose power.

Most people set their base timing to 14 degrees to start, and test and adjust it from there. With 14 degrees of base timing, the total advance is around 38 degrees. An important note to this is if you have a 1986 5.0, and you convert it to MAF, you CANNOT exceed 14 degrees of initial advance (base timing) due to a unique head change that year.

Take care,
-Chris

jimberg · 01-27-2002, 12:17 PM

My impression from 89FHPLX's message is that he has disconnected the SPOUT and is running at a locked 35 degrees of timing, all of the time. This is what he is referring to when he says "I run Total Timing on my car".

Chris, I'm not sure, but I think your numbers may be off. I think the EEC IV will only advance the timing 20 degrees from base, so if you're running a stock base timing fo 10 degrees BTDC, you will be running with a total timing of 30 degrees. I remember looking into this because of the recommendation by Trick-Flow Specialties that I run from 34-36 degrees of total timing. This would mean running 14 - 16 degrees BTDC base timing. I currently run 14.

PKRWUD · 01-27-2002, 01:40 PM

Hey Jim, it's great to see you here again! Missed ya!

Thank you for defining the original question. It gets difficult at times when I'm not sure if it's poor grammer or something else! I think you're right.

As far as the advance goes, I just grabbed 34 from memory. As it turns out, we were both wrong. Below is a chart from one my Mitchell manuals (courtesy of Ford). It shows a peak advance of 40 degrees @ 2500 rpm. Disregard the arrow on top, that was for someone else. The lines to check out are the bottom ones. Interesting. I just checked the numbers for the SD 5.0, and that's why I was thinking 34 degrees! Max advance is 34-35 degrees @ 2450 rpm.

As far as this guy running at a fixed 35 degrees, he would be there at 1400 rpms anyway, so I guess it's doable, but I'm not sure why he'd want to. More engine details would help.

Take care,
-Chris

DemonGT · 01-27-2002, 06:50 PM

UHH..WTF..i think mines is really messed up cause some dude..my freinds uncle or something helped me with mine and when he advanced it nothing was disconnected and the engine was running? where is the spout connector at?

avbcon12 · 01-27-2002, 06:58 PM

what will advancing the timing with the spout connector do?

like demonGT said..

thanks,
adam

PKRWUD · 01-27-2002, 10:49 PM

The spout connector is about a half inch wide by 1 inch long by 3/8". It's small, and is nothing more than a jumper. Removing it takes away the ability of the ECM to adjust the timing, which is necessary for adjusting the timing. Follow the harness from the TFI module on the side of the distributor, and you'll find it. After warming the engine up, turn it off, and remove the spout. Restart the engine, and use your timing light to see where the idle advance really is. This is the only time you should adjust it, because it's the only time you will be able to tell how much youve changed it. Anyway, after you set it where you want it, tighten down the distributor, shut off the engine and reinstall the spout. Simple. If you forget to reinstall the spout, your ignition will never advance. The higher the rpms, without advancing the timing, the more power you are losing.

Take care,
-Chris

DemonGT · 01-28-2002, 12:47 AM

yea but the timing was advanced with the spout connected and IS still connected? what would that do?

89FHPLX · 01-28-2002, 01:43 AM

PKRWUD

As far as this guy running at a fixed 35 degrees, he would be there at 1400 rpms anyway, so I guess it's doable, but I'm not sure why he'd want to. More engine details would help.

To answer that. I guess, ...Well, I know my car is alot stronger with total timing. I wanted to know if there was really a horsepower gain or is it all torque? My car went crazy after I had the timing total with the spout out. The car loved it!! and still does. The trick is also on what gas you put. Cheap 93 octane is bad. I started to put 93 octane gas from Amoco and the car runs alot stonger.

So, is there a HP gain?
Do you spend more gas?
Or is the power or torque the same with the spout on?

The gas is the key also!

Skyman · 01-28-2002, 03:36 AM

Ive run my car with total timing before also.

I ran 36 total. My car felt much stronger in the lower rpms also. This is because you have full timing in ALL the time.

I was told by several people that it was hard on the engine to do this, but I got no reason why. So as far as that goes I still really don't know.

Especially with you having 3.08 gears I imagine the total timing really helps. I just went ahead and put the spout back in and set 16 inital with mine since I have 3.73s and it revs up quick.

Untill you find out a real reason that its bad I would say leave it w/ total timing.

Heck I think I'm going to switch my car back to total timing too, its definatly more fun to drive that way, snappier at the lower rpm's for sure.

Skyler

PKRWUD · 01-28-2002, 05:11 AM

It sounds alot tougher until you consider that it's the advance you would have anyway at 1400 rpm. If you've got good fuel, and blended combustion chambers, I don't see any problem with it, except that I would think you would want more advance higher in the rpm band. I'm going to have try this this year. In my mind, setting up that way would work better with an MSD adjustable timing dial that you could use to get that extra advance when you wanted it. I'm going to do some thinking on this one. Thanks!

Take care,
-Chris

jimberg · 01-28-2002, 09:40 AM

Chris, this is my source. It's a shot of the SpeedBrain timing curve that is supposed to be stock EEC IV. This is from September 2000 5.0 Mustang Page 50 "Ignition Timing Basics".

It shows total timing at 38 degrees BTDC under zero load. This would be at idle. The 60% or above load is what we should be interested in. Total timing is at 28 degrees. I don't know why I remember 20 degrees from initial. It's really 18. I suppose I have to raise my base to 16-18 to be in the range that TFS suggests.

As far as always running with 35 degrees of timing all of the time, the only problem I can see would be poor emissions at idle.

Jeff Chambers · 01-28-2002, 12:40 PM

I've run my car both ways, and dyno tested both ways. I total timed the car at 34 degrees and dyno'd it, then set the base to 16 degrees and dyno'd it. End result? 7hp more with the SPOUT in and the computer handling the timing advance.

Don't set your base with the SPOUT in. If they set it at 35 degrees, then at full advance you'd be running about 53 degrees of total timing. You're asking for serious performance and engine problems if you run this for any length of time on the street, especially under high heat or load conditions.

When I was running the ole pukey E303 cam and we had to make 16 inches of vacuum to pass tech, I had a chip burnt that pumped the timing up to 55 degrees (total), but only up to 1300rpm. After 1300rpm, the timing table dropped back to pretty much stock. It built good vacuum, but it also made the engine idle hotter since I was starting the combustion process so much earlier in the cycle. Alot of heat is absorbed since the combustion was started, and well developed, before the piston ever reached TDC. Most timing retard modules will offer a 'Start Retard' function that actually reduces timing advance during startup so that the high compression race engine doesn't suffer 'kick back'.

Ignore that last line in your reference table PKRWUD, the curve that jimberg has is what the computer is using.

Hint: If you find yourself launching down in the 2000-3500 range (low stall or a stick car on street tires), have your chip burnt to change the table so that full advance is realized much sooner, say at 2000rpm instead of 3000rpm. You'll pick up a little free horsepower & torque.

PKRWUD · 01-28-2002, 02:38 PM

Very interesting! This thread has some good info in it. Thanks for sharing!!

Take care,
-Chris

Mr 5 0 · 01-28-2002, 04:01 PM

Chris, jimberg, Jeff, all:

Thanks for an excellent, wide-ranging and factual discussion on that most basic performance-tuning tool, ignition timing.

Lots of mis-information floating around and apparently lots of confusion too. Your input on the subject, based on knowledge and experience, (as well as those neat graphs and charts) help a lot.

Thanks. Keep it coming.

PKRWUD · 01-28-2002, 04:38 PM

Jim (Berg)-
Actually, the more I look at it, that's a great graph! I don't have the equipment necessary to determine what the ECM does under load, and am forced to make any and all adjustments based on idle performance and the manuals that give their specifications for such. Knowing how a stock ECM reacts to load is very helpful, and I will have a copy of that graph in my Ford box. It's one thing to go on experience, but it's another when you can find information like that. What else do you have up your sleeve? Thanks again!

Take care,
-Chris

Jeff Chambers · 01-28-2002, 06:24 PM

If you can still find it out there on the 'net, download the demo version of Mike Wesley's Calibrator software. You can't actually burn the chip, but you can see (and modify) the parameters and look-up tables that the EEC uses. Its really insightful on how the EEC works and what/where/how the various sensors are used.

I've got a copy of the software....come to think of it I think I actually got it off Mustangworks here in the software section. Check it out.

LOWKEY · 01-28-2002, 07:02 PM

Good info here..

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EECTuner/files/FAQ.pdf

89FHPLX · 01-28-2002, 11:42 PM

Hmm??

So i get more HP witht he spout on? That's weird.. there was actully a big difference with the sput out. I will need to look into this further. Maybe It all depends on the engine. Not all 302's were built the same.

Coupe5oh · 01-29-2002, 05:06 AM

Ok heres a question? my friend has a carbed 347, it has an msd ignition, his vacuum advance on his distributor has been removed/disconected? is he losing power? or does the msd box controll all of that? thnx...

im learning alot on this subject, I never thought about launch rpm and ignition timing like jeff mentioned, this might help me find a better rpm to pop the clutch on these sticky tires, but i have an ADS chip? pos chip, i need to get rid of it.

01-27-2002, 12:49 AM	#1
89FHPLX Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 116	Total Timing or Computer Timing. What is the deal once and for all! Ok, I run Total timing on my car. I have it set at 35 and the car has no problems. When My friends find out, they go crazy. My timing was set by a Mustang Shop. I didn't know anything about that except that you waste more fuel. My friends will read this......So what are the advantage's of total timing. And what the difference with the spout on. Will I get more power with the spout off or on? Is there a HP gain to all this. Like I said, My car runs strong but I would like some suggestions from more experience Mustang PRO's. __________________ 89 Mustang Police Interceptor Cobra Upper Intake GT-40 Lower Intake Ported TFS Track Heats Heads Crane Cams 2040 Reground By Crawford Performance 1.6 Scorpion Roller Rokers FMR 65mm TB BBk Equal Lenth Shorty Headers Billit Fuel Pressure Regulator (45Lbs) Under Drive Pullies Moroso Cold Air MSD Blaster TFI Coil X-Pipe with 2 chamber Flowmaster Cobra water pump pully 34 Degree Total Timing with spout out Short Belt No Air Silencer Hurst Short Throw Shifter Taylor 8.8 Blue Wires 3.8 Taurus Electric Fan 3.08 Gears (soon 3.55's) 19# Injectors (soon 24lb) Stock mass air

01-27-2002, 06:13 AM	#2
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	That means your base timing is about 11 degrees advanced, which is just about stock. You could improve things. To answer you questions: An engines total timing is the combined total of it's base timing (where you set it at idle), it's maximum vacuum advance (if equipped), and it's maximum mechanical advance (if equipped). You will usually find the engine has reached it's total timing by 3000 rpm. For a stock engine, the average total advance is about 34 degrees. Your Mustang is electronically fuel injected, which means the ECM (the "computer") takes over the job of advancing the timing for you, so you no longer have a vacuum or a mechanical advance. This leaves you with the base timing. The factory recommends it be set at 10 degrees BTDC, so the ECM is programmed to respond like the timing at idle is set to 10 degrees advanced. If you try and change the base timing, the ECM will try and correct it, and you'll end up with a lousy running engine. So, in order to trick the ECM by advancing the base timing, the signal from the distributor to the ECM must be disabled. This is done by removing the spout connector. When the spout connector is removed, the timing you see at idle with a timing light is the real timing, not computer controlled timing. After the timing has been set, you MUST reinstall the spout connector, so that the ECM can control the advance for you. If you leave the spout out, the timing will not advance when the rpm's do, and you will lose power. Most people set their base timing to 14 degrees to start, and test and adjust it from there. With 14 degrees of base timing, the total advance is around 38 degrees. An important note to this is if you have a 1986 5.0, and you convert it to MAF, you CANNOT exceed 14 degrees of initial advance (base timing) due to a unique head change that year. Take care, -Chris __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

01-27-2002, 12:17 PM	#3
jimberg Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Rogers, MN Posts: 2,089	My impression from 89FHPLX's message is that he has disconnected the SPOUT and is running at a locked 35 degrees of timing, all of the time. This is what he is referring to when he says "I run Total Timing on my car". Chris, I'm not sure, but I think your numbers may be off. I think the EEC IV will only advance the timing 20 degrees from base, so if you're running a stock base timing fo 10 degrees BTDC, you will be running with a total timing of 30 degrees. I remember looking into this because of the recommendation by Trick-Flow Specialties that I run from 34-36 degrees of total timing. This would mean running 14 - 16 degrees BTDC base timing. I currently run 14. __________________ 351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible

01-27-2002, 01:40 PM	#4
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Hey Jim, it's great to see you here again! Missed ya! Thank you for defining the original question. It gets difficult at times when I'm not sure if it's poor grammer or something else! I think you're right. As far as the advance goes, I just grabbed 34 from memory. As it turns out, we were both wrong. Below is a chart from one my Mitchell manuals (courtesy of Ford). It shows a peak advance of 40 degrees @ 2500 rpm. Disregard the arrow on top, that was for someone else. The lines to check out are the bottom ones. Interesting. I just checked the numbers for the SD 5.0, and that's why I was thinking 34 degrees! Max advance is 34-35 degrees @ 2450 rpm. As far as this guy running at a fixed 35 degrees, he would be there at 1400 rpms anyway, so I guess it's doable, but I'm not sure why he'd want to. More engine details would help. Take care, -Chris __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

01-27-2002, 06:50 PM	#5
DemonGT Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 879	UHH..WTF..i think mines is really messed up cause some dude..my freinds uncle or something helped me with mine and when he advanced it nothing was disconnected and the engine was running? where is the spout connector at? __________________ '91 GT,410W,10.5 to 1 comp,Victor Jr. heads,Victor 5.8 intake,FTI cam,Crane retro fit lifters,Scorpian 1.6 RR's,Melling HV oil pump,MSD distro.,Canton oil pan,FMS flywheel,Romac balancer,FMS timing chain,Accufab 90mm TB,C&L 76mm maf, 42lbers,HD clutch,K&N air filter,Mac long tubes,Pro dumps,powerchamber,FMS 9mm wires,180 thermostat,Ford Racing gauges,5inch Tach,centerline convo pro's,nitto DR's,Pro3i lower control arms,50/50 shocks,3.55 gears,TFS HD diff. cover Next year: Tremec TKO,Spec stage 3 clutch,alum driveshaft,complete fuel system www.angelfire.com/linux/demondan

01-27-2002, 06:58 PM	#6
avbcon12 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: West Bloomfield, MI Posts: 391	what will advancing the timing with the spout connector do? like demonGT said.. thanks, adam __________________ 90 GT black/ grey leather ported GT-40 heads w/ 1.7RR, Cobra intake w/ ported lower, 24# injectors, 190LPH pump, 75mm Pro-M MAF, 65mm TB, K&N panel, BBK long tubes, Off road H-pipe, 2 ch. Flowmaster, Black magic fan, Kirban FPR, 180 deg. T-stat, 3.73's, Steeda Tri-Ax, 130 amp alt. Accell 8.8 race wires/cap/rotor, motorcraft plugs, Factory Five suspension, etc etc etc.... http://avbcon12.stangnet.com

01-27-2002, 10:49 PM	#7
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	The spout connector is about a half inch wide by 1 inch long by 3/8". It's small, and is nothing more than a jumper. Removing it takes away the ability of the ECM to adjust the timing, which is necessary for adjusting the timing. Follow the harness from the TFI module on the side of the distributor, and you'll find it. After warming the engine up, turn it off, and remove the spout. Restart the engine, and use your timing light to see where the idle advance really is. This is the only time you should adjust it, because it's the only time you will be able to tell how much youve changed it. Anyway, after you set it where you want it, tighten down the distributor, shut off the engine and reinstall the spout. Simple. If you forget to reinstall the spout, your ignition will never advance. The higher the rpms, without advancing the timing, the more power you are losing. Take care, -Chris __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

01-28-2002, 12:47 AM	#8
DemonGT Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 879	yea but the timing was advanced with the spout connected and IS still connected? what would that do? __________________ '91 GT,410W,10.5 to 1 comp,Victor Jr. heads,Victor 5.8 intake,FTI cam,Crane retro fit lifters,Scorpian 1.6 RR's,Melling HV oil pump,MSD distro.,Canton oil pan,FMS flywheel,Romac balancer,FMS timing chain,Accufab 90mm TB,C&L 76mm maf, 42lbers,HD clutch,K&N air filter,Mac long tubes,Pro dumps,powerchamber,FMS 9mm wires,180 thermostat,Ford Racing gauges,5inch Tach,centerline convo pro's,nitto DR's,Pro3i lower control arms,50/50 shocks,3.55 gears,TFS HD diff. cover Next year: Tremec TKO,Spec stage 3 clutch,alum driveshaft,complete fuel system www.angelfire.com/linux/demondan

01-28-2002, 01:43 AM	#9
89FHPLX Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 116	PKRWUD As far as this guy running at a fixed 35 degrees, he would be there at 1400 rpms anyway, so I guess it's doable, but I'm not sure why he'd want to. More engine details would help. To answer that. I guess, ...Well, I know my car is alot stronger with total timing. I wanted to know if there was really a horsepower gain or is it all torque? My car went crazy after I had the timing total with the spout out. The car loved it!! and still does. The trick is also on what gas you put. Cheap 93 octane is bad. I started to put 93 octane gas from Amoco and the car runs alot stonger. So, is there a HP gain? Do you spend more gas? Or is the power or torque the same with the spout on? The gas is the key also! __________________ 89 Mustang Police Interceptor Cobra Upper Intake GT-40 Lower Intake Ported TFS Track Heats Heads Crane Cams 2040 Reground By Crawford Performance 1.6 Scorpion Roller Rokers FMR 65mm TB BBk Equal Lenth Shorty Headers Billit Fuel Pressure Regulator (45Lbs) Under Drive Pullies Moroso Cold Air MSD Blaster TFI Coil X-Pipe with 2 chamber Flowmaster Cobra water pump pully 34 Degree Total Timing with spout out Short Belt No Air Silencer Hurst Short Throw Shifter Taylor 8.8 Blue Wires 3.8 Taurus Electric Fan 3.08 Gears (soon 3.55's) 19# Injectors (soon 24lb) Stock mass air

01-28-2002, 03:36 AM	#10
Skyman I need 110mph Trap Speed! Join Date: Feb 1999 Location: So, CA Posts: 4,315	Ive run my car with total timing before also. I ran 36 total. My car felt much stronger in the lower rpms also. This is because you have full timing in ALL the time. I was told by several people that it was hard on the engine to do this, but I got no reason why. So as far as that goes I still really don't know. Especially with you having 3.08 gears I imagine the total timing really helps. I just went ahead and put the spout back in and set 16 inital with mine since I have 3.73s and it revs up quick. Untill you find out a real reason that its bad I would say leave it w/ total timing. Heck I think I'm going to switch my car back to total timing too, its definatly more fun to drive that way, snappier at the lower rpm's for sure. Skyler __________________ 2001 BMW M3 6spd 12.79@108 RIP ---- 1993 Notch w/ 98 4V 4.6 Fasttt... -1989 Saleen Mustang #406- 12.32@109 -1999 Black Cobra Coupe- JBA Shorties, Bassani Cat-X, Magnaflow 3", Pulleys, 85mm Pro-M, Ported Intake, Soild Rear w/ 4.30s, Tubular Front End, X2C arms, 13lb batt, few others.

01-28-2002, 05:11 AM	#11
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	It sounds alot tougher until you consider that it's the advance you would have anyway at 1400 rpm. If you've got good fuel, and blended combustion chambers, I don't see any problem with it, except that I would think you would want more advance higher in the rpm band. I'm going to have try this this year. In my mind, setting up that way would work better with an MSD adjustable timing dial that you could use to get that extra advance when you wanted it. I'm going to do some thinking on this one. Thanks! Take care, -Chris __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

01-28-2002, 09:40 AM	#12
jimberg Registered Member Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Rogers, MN Posts: 2,089	Chris, this is my source. It's a shot of the SpeedBrain timing curve that is supposed to be stock EEC IV. This is from September 2000 5.0 Mustang Page 50 "Ignition Timing Basics". It shows total timing at 38 degrees BTDC under zero load. This would be at idle. The 60% or above load is what we should be interested in. Total timing is at 28 degrees. I don't know why I remember 20 degrees from initial. It's really 18. I suppose I have to raise my base to 16-18 to be in the range that TFS suggests. As far as always running with 35 degrees of timing all of the time, the only problem I can see would be poor emissions at idle. __________________ 351W 89 Mustang GT Convertible

01-28-2002, 12:40 PM	#13
Jeff Chambers Moderator Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Milan, OH Posts: 2,699	I've run my car both ways, and dyno tested both ways. I total timed the car at 34 degrees and dyno'd it, then set the base to 16 degrees and dyno'd it. End result? 7hp more with the SPOUT in and the computer handling the timing advance. Don't set your base with the SPOUT in. If they set it at 35 degrees, then at full advance you'd be running about 53 degrees of total timing. You're asking for serious performance and engine problems if you run this for any length of time on the street, especially under high heat or load conditions. When I was running the ole pukey E303 cam and we had to make 16 inches of vacuum to pass tech, I had a chip burnt that pumped the timing up to 55 degrees (total), but only up to 1300rpm. After 1300rpm, the timing table dropped back to pretty much stock. It built good vacuum, but it also made the engine idle hotter since I was starting the combustion process so much earlier in the cycle. Alot of heat is absorbed since the combustion was started, and well developed, before the piston ever reached TDC. Most timing retard modules will offer a 'Start Retard' function that actually reduces timing advance during startup so that the high compression race engine doesn't suffer 'kick back'. Ignore that last line in your reference table PKRWUD, the curve that jimberg has is what the computer is using. Hint: If you find yourself launching down in the 2000-3500 range (low stall or a stick car on street tires), have your chip burnt to change the table so that full advance is realized much sooner, say at 2000rpm instead of 3000rpm. You'll pick up a little free horsepower & torque. __________________ Jeff Chambers 1990 Mustang GT 10.032 Seconds / 137.5 MPH 14-time Street Warrior World Record Setter CRT Performance 2001 Tropic Green Mustang GT - 12.181 / 113.2 MPH 2002 Ford F-250 Crew Cab 7.3l Power Stroke - 17.41@77.2 "There's nothing boring about a small block automatic shifting gears at 9400 rpm!"

01-28-2002, 02:38 PM	#14
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Very interesting! This thread has some good info in it. Thanks for sharing!! Take care, -Chris __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

01-28-2002, 04:01 PM	#15
Mr 5 0 Conservative Individualist Join Date: May 1997 Location: Wherever I need to be Posts: 7,487	Timing tutorial Chris, jimberg, Jeff, all: Thanks for an excellent, wide-ranging and factual discussion on that most basic performance-tuning tool, ignition timing. Lots of mis-information floating around and apparently lots of confusion too. Your input on the subject, based on knowledge and experience, (as well as those neat graphs and charts) help a lot. Thanks. Keep it coming.

01-28-2002, 04:38 PM	#16
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Jim (Berg)- Actually, the more I look at it, that's a great graph! I don't have the equipment necessary to determine what the ECM does under load, and am forced to make any and all adjustments based on idle performance and the manuals that give their specifications for such. Knowing how a stock ECM reacts to load is very helpful, and I will have a copy of that graph in my Ford box. It's one thing to go on experience, but it's another when you can find information like that. What else do you have up your sleeve? Thanks again! Take care, -Chris __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

01-28-2002, 06:24 PM	#17
Jeff Chambers Moderator Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Milan, OH Posts: 2,699	If you can still find it out there on the 'net, download the demo version of Mike Wesley's Calibrator software. You can't actually burn the chip, but you can see (and modify) the parameters and look-up tables that the EEC uses. Its really insightful on how the EEC works and what/where/how the various sensors are used. I've got a copy of the software....come to think of it I think I actually got it off Mustangworks here in the software section. Check it out. __________________ Jeff Chambers 1990 Mustang GT 10.032 Seconds / 137.5 MPH 14-time Street Warrior World Record Setter CRT Performance 2001 Tropic Green Mustang GT - 12.181 / 113.2 MPH 2002 Ford F-250 Crew Cab 7.3l Power Stroke - 17.41@77.2 "There's nothing boring about a small block automatic shifting gears at 9400 rpm!"

01-28-2002, 07:02 PM	#18
LOWKEY Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: greenvile, NC Posts: 161	Good info here.. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EECTuner/files/FAQ.pdf

01-28-2002, 11:42 PM	#19
89FHPLX Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 116	Hmm?? So i get more HP witht he spout on? That's weird.. there was actully a big difference with the sput out. I will need to look into this further. Maybe It all depends on the engine. Not all 302's were built the same. __________________ 89 Mustang Police Interceptor Cobra Upper Intake GT-40 Lower Intake Ported TFS Track Heats Heads Crane Cams 2040 Reground By Crawford Performance 1.6 Scorpion Roller Rokers FMR 65mm TB BBk Equal Lenth Shorty Headers Billit Fuel Pressure Regulator (45Lbs) Under Drive Pullies Moroso Cold Air MSD Blaster TFI Coil X-Pipe with 2 chamber Flowmaster Cobra water pump pully 34 Degree Total Timing with spout out Short Belt No Air Silencer Hurst Short Throw Shifter Taylor 8.8 Blue Wires 3.8 Taurus Electric Fan 3.08 Gears (soon 3.55's) 19# Injectors (soon 24lb) Stock mass air

01-29-2002, 05:06 AM	#20
Coupe5oh Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: SanAntonio, Tx Posts: 734	Ok heres a question? my friend has a carbed 347, it has an msd ignition, his vacuum advance on his distributor has been removed/disconected? is he losing power? or does the msd box controll all of that? thnx... im learning alot on this subject, I never thought about launch rpm and ignition timing like jeff mentioned, this might help me find a better rpm to pop the clutch on these sticky tires, but i have an ADS chip? pos chip, i need to get rid of it. __________________ Police package 5spd 90 Lx, Stock original motor, 3.27grs, BM fan, fms 10.5 clutch, D&D quadrant, and adjuster, ADS chip, 180 stat, mac cai, mac h-pipe, mac subframe connectors, ASP crank pulley, ripper shifter, 26x10.5 M/T sport pros welds. 246 hp according to analyzer Race weight: 3,120 E.t-13.57 with 26x10.50's e.t. streets. 1.88 60' mph- 99.92 mph