MustangWorks.com : Ford Forums - Total timing vs initial timing for max HP.

Page 2 of 2

Show 50 post(s) from this thread on one page

MustangWorks.com : Ford Forums (http://forums.mustangworks.com/index.php)

- Windsor Power (http://forums.mustangworks.com/forumdisplay.php?f=8)

- - Total timing vs initial timing for max HP. (http://forums.mustangworks.com/showthread.php?t=35026)

tmoss

03-30-2003 11:40 AM

Anyone can pick up ANY photo from any website by right clicking on the image and selecting "save picture as" on the drop-down menu and saving it to a file on your computer.

84LX89GT

04-16-2003 12:04 AM

Bad thing about removing spout connector

This thread peaked my interest, so i did a little researching on the subject of removing the spout. We all know it is the signal to the TFI for when to fire the coil, but i got to thinking...."are there any negative effects to disconnecting the spout?"
This is what i found in an official Ford "PC/ED" - Powertrain Control and Emissions Diagnostic manual.
"The coil ON time, or dwell, for this system is thus entirely controlled by the SPOUT signal. - In the case that the SPOUT signal line opens from the PCM, the ICM will use the PIP signal to fire the coil. This results in a fixed spark angle and fixed dwell."

What this means is that the dwell is fixed....the same amount of time is given to saturate the coil from idle up to 6000 rpm or whatever you feel like revving to. If the coil fails to saturate in the primary, less secondary voltage is induced and spark intensity diminishes rapidly which could even cause a high RPM misfire. I don't think i'll be trying this trick, although it may still work.

tmoss

04-16-2003 07:07 AM

Yep, you got it right from the source you used.

BilLster

04-16-2003 09:42 AM

ok im thinking back to when chevy guys locked out there distributor weights and it worked great at the track but when down shifting created huge problems.

I will agree whole heartedly that this would work as intended at the track but amhaving a little problem with day to day driving requirements. is there a stick versus auto part i missed or N/A versus blown diffrence ?

I am thinking of running total timimg on my N/A set up if i go Apr 25th and will see what changes untill i figure this out i dont have the guts to try it on the turbo set up.

302man

04-16-2003 04:22 PM

Dwell, is the duration of the spark right ? So if you used a MSD ignition, wouldn't it fire 2-3 times anyway up to 2-3000 rpm ? This sounds like a compasitive discharge ignition would more than make up for it.

The spout out method does have its draw backs as has it positives too. I have yet to see ANY drivability issues with an auto or five speed, blower or n/a.

To me, the negatives are : not emmissions legal, gas mileage might be down 1-2mpg, (some cases it has increased,) when used with a power adder(blower), you need additional equipment to opimize your set up.

Positives : no longer haveing the EEC pull out timing due to varying conditions = gaining consistancy, when using a power adder, a BTM can be used with this method to pull back timing, consistancy at the race track: my car would run at +/- .02 every time. (usually driver shifting error) no hard starting when hot - I used 30 degrees base, tends to clear up a rich running engine at idle, for power adder (blower) guys : part throttle detination is almost always eliminatedand best of all, its free....if it don't work for you, no harm no foul, just change it back.

This idea of removing the spout out, was used by guys like Lideo at Alternative Auto and Jimmy Larocca. The problem was : when using a blower, part throttle detination existed as well as detination just off full throttle. This method fixed the the detination problem as well as gained a few HP due to the increased timing at lower RPM.

Why do I feel so strong that this is a good exceptable way to go ? Easy : it worked for me and I had basicly nothing that made my car run a 10.13@135 . I had a S trim- everybody and their brother has one of these .... (at least it seems like it) edelbrock 6037 heads, GT-40 intake-lower ported, 1 5/8 lt headers, C4 and 3:55 gears. Nothing fancy here. But it worked and when I went over to this type of tuning, my performance kept going and going until I leveled off af at my 10.13 . Again, this way might not work for you, if it don't work , just change it back.

tmoss

04-16-2003 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 302man
Why do I feel so strong that this is a good exceptable way to go ? Easy : it worked for me ........

There's more than one way to skin a cat, you found another way that works well - good for you, that's what hot roddin's all about.

84LX89GT

04-17-2003 04:14 PM

dwell is the coil on time (primary side) when the processor gives it power before breaking it. The dwell is how long the coil is "on" saturated, before the circuit is opened inducing the secondary spark to fire the plugs. Less dwell time (primary on time) creates less of a magnetic field in the primary coil, which will induce a smaller voltage in the secondary. If you have MSD ignition and coil, though, you don't really need as much dwell time because the system is designed for multiple spark discharge which has small dwell time anyway. On stock engines, though, removing the spout may not work because it's designed to have a certain dwell at a certain engine speed/load, it's worth a try because there's no harm in the consequences. I just didn't hear any negatives to the spout theory, thought i'd be the party pooper :D

TONYD

04-20-2003 02:09 PM

Ok,

My .02.. I have the timing locked with the spout out on my 95 gt (see sig) .. I picked up a ton of low end with this mod (before removing spout with the sucky timing curve on the 94-95 processor it would ping with more than 10 degrees intitial when it would go into drive.. now i run 34 total and with the high torque stater that comes on 92 and newer mustangs it carnks fine AND it picked up 3 FULL TENTHS NA and 2 tenths on bottle :D :D

My car is DRIVEN DAILY and has been nothing but better with this change..

And whoever it was that stated it would take away low end has their wires crossed it HELPS torque and low end..

All A9L and A9P processors add 20 degrees to base timing.. They add it at differing times (the p is a auto computer and the L is a 5 spd processor) But idealy on a Performance car you want your total in as early as possible this promotes torque, throttle response , etc..

As for the misfire problem with the reduced dwell time it might be a problem with a stock ignition car BUT with a MSD it is not nor do i see it to ever be .. (i have heard of some stock cars with the timing locked via spout removal having a top end bang)

Ever car will be different in the amount of timing they like. It depends on the head, cam, etc.. Most motors will make best et and mph at anywhere from 30-38 degrees of total timing.. Some stock headed cars may like slightly more due to a more INefficient combustion chamber requireing more ignition lead to get a good burn..

I never run anything but pump gas so just because you lock timing does NOT mean you need race gas :rolleyes:

I have done this to MANY blower setups on fox body cars with good results by being able to have more initial and use a btm to pull out timing as the boost hits.. Thereby making the car have more throttle response and low end before the boost hits under light throttle..

Just my .02

tmoss

04-20-2003 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TONYD

All A9L and A9P processors add 20 degrees to base timing.. They add it at differing times (the p is a auto computer and the L is a 5 spd processor) But idealy on a Performance car you want your total in as early as possible this promotes torque, throttle response , etc..

For those of you who might want to see an A9L spark map, it in this thread

"Total timing vs initial timing for max HP"

This site won't let me post it again. They ought to link it up and show the link at least!!!!!!!!!!!!

bigred90gt

04-20-2003 03:26 PM

Back to the original idea in the thread, I pulled my spout and set my bast to 30 something deg and ran it without the spout, and hit my best time of a 14.2 (I know, still slow). Just for comparitive values, I re-set the timing to 26 deg base, and put the spout back in, and ran the same et on the next run. I am not sure about the mph on each run, but I'm sure they were close. But that is just my expiernces, all cars run a little different.

Caymon

302man

04-20-2003 05:02 PM

Caymon, you are living dangerously if you put the spout back in after having the base timing at 26. A compairable test is 30 degrees base, no spout, and then run it at 14 degrees base with the spout in.

srv1	04-20-2003 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 302man
Caymon, you are living dangerously if you put the spout back in after having the base timing at 26. A compairable test is 30 degrees base, no spout, and then run it at 14 degrees base with the spout in.

i wouldnt think the car would even run after that! Yeah what 302man said.

bigred90gt

04-21-2003 12:49 AM

Ya, you know, I appologize, that was a typo. I set it back to 16deg and put the spout back in. Sorry about that. Long day.

Caymon

wowgoldstright

04-28-2009 09:21 PM

Re: Total timing vs initial timing for max HP.