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Total timing vs initial timing for max HP.
My 90LX is ready fror some track time. I normaly run the timing at 12 degrees initial cause I have a superchip.
Alot of guys are running like 38 degrees of total timing with the spout connector removed and they say that the car runs better that way cause the ECU's timing tables suck. Can I run total timing with the spout connector removed with the superchip? By removing the spout connector I am taking away the ECU's ability to control the timing right? If anyone has positive or negative experience running an EFI 5.0 HO with total timing I would love to here it. Every little bit counts. Thanks, |
You are also removing the superchip's ability to control timing as well.
I have been meaning to try total timing at the track, but haven't gotten around to it yet. I think 38 may be a little high. I think I remember someone telling me that anything beyond 34 and it will have a hard time starting, or not start at all. I'll let ya know how it goes whenever I get around to trying it |
Yeah, yanking the spout defeats the chip. Anyway, daily driving it that way is very bad, and the info I have SEEN claims there are no gains at all below 4000 rpms, and in fact the power is lower below 4000 roms. Minor gains should be found above that, though.
From personal, first hand experience? I dunno, I'd never do that to a vehicle I owned. I know you wouldn't leave it like that for the drive home, though, so take a 7/16" distributor wrench, a timing light, and be our guinea pig. :) How long could it take you to pull the spout and change the timing? This would be an ideal test, too, because the weather and track conditions aren't likely to change very much between runs. If you try this, make it a point to let me know how it did. I'm always looking for information from a reliable source. lol. ;) Take care, ~Chris |
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thank you. It was a very long day yesterday. lol
:) Take care, ~Chris |
Let me throw a wrench in the works here. How about total advance timing?
This is your timing with the spout in and the engine above 3000 rpm. I personally never pull the spout, I always check timing at total advance. The highest I would take this is 36 degrees. What octane fuel are you running? Murdock |
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I will run 36 degrees of total timing and see what happens. I am just trying to hit a high 12 by any means necessary. With my luck i will probably run a 13 flat or a 13.1:rolleyes: Later, |
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The gains are below 4000, not above, someone misled you. I'll be heading to the track Saturday, I'll let you know how it goes, but, I can tell you that on the street, I have much more tq below 4000... That is all I know. |
With G-tech testing (I know, ultrareliable :rolleyes: )and my relatively low compression ratio, my car had the best mph with 39* of total timing with 94 octane gas. As soon as the track opens I'll try a couple of different settings but last year a back to back with 34* to 36* gained me a full mph on a run with a quicker 60' time and all my runs after that were a mph higher than the 34* ones so that suggests that I definitely gained some. The timing window for a 5.0L with less than 9.5:1 is about 34*to 40* and every car seems to like something different than the next.
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Since you folks brought it up, I have to ask. Total timing vs. static timing. What is the degree of advance past static for a 5.0? I have been trying to run between 12 and 16 degrees static advance but what does this get me in total advance? Also, is this something I can check with a timing light or is it a calculated setting?
Thanks for any help you can provide. |
The amount of timing advance is different for the different computers used in the 5.0L mustang. Pulling the spout out gets rid of the computers ability to control timing, so this is why you set your timing at total with the spout out, and leave it out.
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5ohpatrol is right, every computers advance is different as well as their total timing. There are a few basic rules of thumb that people look at. One is WOT timing. The EEC adds 15-16 degrees of timing to the base timing. So if base is 10 degrees plus the EEC of 16 , total advance during WOT should be about 25-26 degrees. There are certain EEC's out there with more aggressive timing/fuel maps in their. Most people get the A9L or A9P. I had the oppertuninty to see the timing MAP of a A9L at WOT. From what I could see, the EEC doesn't put in all the 16 degrees at WOT. It waits to about 3000 rpm until its all in. So thats where the spout out, high base timing helps. It will give you more power due to higher timing in the curve. If you run a chip and remove the spout, you are only effecting the timing and timng only. The fuel maps, if changed, will still work fine.
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density altitude today was 2650... (12.9 run was d/a 1600)
car ran 4 pass's, all 13.0x's @ high 102's low 103's 60's are still off, driver is leaving too soft... lack of seat time recently... With low 1.7 60's rather than mid/high 1.7's, and with better air, it has low/mid 12.8's in it for certian. Total timing works in theory at this point, but still no time slip to talk about... just theory and excuses... :rolleyes: |
i thought the computer also gets information for the fuel curve from the distributor? i dont really understand why you want to pull the spout and run just from that. i really dont believe when you pull the spout you are just effecting timing also. the computer generates pulse width from other sensors and from the distributor firing. If the computer does add an additional 16 degrees at WOT, why not just set the distributor at 16(total of roughly 32) or higher and let it go from there? Does the computer start throwing in the timing only at 3000 grand and up? How do you know? I would assume your wouldnt benefit off the line with the spout disconnected unless you are launching at a very high RPM. Besides, you would have to keep those RPM's up to achieve the power you would want to keep your total timing effective. I cant see how 32 degrees of timing would help at 1500-3000 RPM's. But if it works, i would be stumped:confused:
Also, i have not seen anyone mention the heat range of the plugs either. James |
SRV1, the spout connector does timing and timing only. It has nothing to do with fuel or fuel maps, The beneffits of using high base timing without a spout are you no longer have to rely on the EEC to change the timing. The EEC will change the timing if it sees it as too hot/cold . Its very hard to be consistant when racing when the EEC moves around due to temp conditions. Also, if you leave the spout in and have total WOT advance at 32 degrees, it would take a little over 3000 rpm to be at 32 degrees. If you launched your car at 2000 rpm, would you want 24 degrees or 32 degrees ? I would want 32 degrees for better low end and better 60ft times (traction permitting). We just had a huge discussion on the corral about this same subject. I will find it and bring the link over here for you guys to see.
This is a free mod. If it don't work for you, simply put it back where it was before. Every car is different, some might work, some might not. I ran my old S trim car this way and it worked great, loved it. I had to abandon it due to the quest for nines. |
read this thread. We are talking mostly about superchargers, but the idea is still the same.
http://www.corral.net/forums/showthr...hreadid=257283 |
You've made some good points.
If the computer gets fuel info from the dist., than that would explain my milage. I've gone from 19mpg city, to 17mpg city. I figured it was the warmer weather and the switch to aerated gas that we are blessed with here in Phoenix durring the warmer months. To get 60' in the low 1.7's on stock suspension and with stock HP is requiring dumping the clutch at 5000+rpms. If I were running street tires the total timing would make getting out of the hole very difficult with the add'd response/tq down low. On street tires (not dr's) the car would break the tires loose at the top of second with 15* initial and spout in, but now with spout out and 36*, I can break them loose in second at any time with just a stab of the gas. I'm not certian, but I 'thought' the computer add as much as 16*, but it was dependant on a host of things not just throttle position, and, depending on what the computer is reading, you may not get the full 16*. I 'thought' that it would add as miuch as 16*, but that it came on in incraments with rpm. The heat thing is an interesting point as well. On the street the car runs a very small amount warmer, stock guages, so I don't know what the numbers are, just that it's slightly higher now. I've not experienced any detonation on the street or at the track however. I should note, that I don't drive hard on the street, the odd romp, but my street driving would be more akin to Jessie, than Luke or Bo (all of the Duke family). I think I'll be throwing the spout back in for daily driving duties, and leaving the total timing for the track, see if the temps drop back a little and if my mileage goes back up. I'm defintaly pulling it at the track... to run 6/100ths off my best time, with worse 60's and worse air conditions, it is definatly a track trick... That's all. |
302man...
you type faster than me... both your responses came while I was 2 finger tappin'. |
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For those of you who have not seen a EEC timing table, I attached one to this thread. I believe 302man's method of setting up a blown engine with the BTM is a good idea for "spirited" driving. You'll see the table and it's modifiers for driving at less than wide open throttle (WOT) and then at the bottom is the table used for WOT. Keep in mind that this table reflects timing added ABOVE base timing as the computer can only add to the base setting. This is ONE A9L table and if you have one, this may not be your exact table as they do vary from car-to-car and year-to-year.
Notice that timing can actually get well beyond 30* and that is why 302man's suggestion works as well as it does. At WOT the EEC is trying to add timing at the same time the BTM is trying to pull timing. Even in a naturally aspirated car, it's good to pull some timing as rpm increases to maximum and then add it back as rpm falls to keep torque as close to peak as possible. |
Tmoss, can you send me that info ? That is great stuff and its hard to find. I would like to hold onto it if possible.
BTW, do you know HRSPLAY or Cuda ? They are from over there. |
Anyone can pick up ANY photo from any website by right clicking on the image and selecting "save picture as" on the drop-down menu and saving it to a file on your computer.
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Bad thing about removing spout connector
This thread peaked my interest, so i did a little researching on the subject of removing the spout. We all know it is the signal to the TFI for when to fire the coil, but i got to thinking...."are there any negative effects to disconnecting the spout?"
This is what i found in an official Ford "PC/ED" - Powertrain Control and Emissions Diagnostic manual. "The coil ON time, or dwell, for this system is thus entirely controlled by the SPOUT signal. - In the case that the SPOUT signal line opens from the PCM, the ICM will use the PIP signal to fire the coil. This results in a fixed spark angle and fixed dwell." What this means is that the dwell is fixed....the same amount of time is given to saturate the coil from idle up to 6000 rpm or whatever you feel like revving to. If the coil fails to saturate in the primary, less secondary voltage is induced and spark intensity diminishes rapidly which could even cause a high RPM misfire. I don't think i'll be trying this trick, although it may still work. |
Yep, you got it right from the source you used.
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ok im thinking back to when chevy guys locked out there distributor weights and it worked great at the track but when down shifting created huge problems.
I will agree whole heartedly that this would work as intended at the track but amhaving a little problem with day to day driving requirements. is there a stick versus auto part i missed or N/A versus blown diffrence ? I am thinking of running total timimg on my N/A set up if i go Apr 25th and will see what changes untill i figure this out i dont have the guts to try it on the turbo set up. |
Dwell, is the duration of the spark right ? So if you used a MSD ignition, wouldn't it fire 2-3 times anyway up to 2-3000 rpm ? This sounds like a compasitive discharge ignition would more than make up for it.
The spout out method does have its draw backs as has it positives too. I have yet to see ANY drivability issues with an auto or five speed, blower or n/a. To me, the negatives are : not emmissions legal, gas mileage might be down 1-2mpg, (some cases it has increased,) when used with a power adder(blower), you need additional equipment to opimize your set up. Positives : no longer haveing the EEC pull out timing due to varying conditions = gaining consistancy, when using a power adder, a BTM can be used with this method to pull back timing, consistancy at the race track: my car would run at +/- .02 every time. (usually driver shifting error) no hard starting when hot - I used 30 degrees base, tends to clear up a rich running engine at idle, for power adder (blower) guys : part throttle detination is almost always eliminatedand best of all, its free....if it don't work for you, no harm no foul, just change it back. This idea of removing the spout out, was used by guys like Lideo at Alternative Auto and Jimmy Larocca. The problem was : when using a blower, part throttle detination existed as well as detination just off full throttle. This method fixed the the detination problem as well as gained a few HP due to the increased timing at lower RPM. Why do I feel so strong that this is a good exceptable way to go ? Easy : it worked for me and I had basicly nothing that made my car run a 10.13@135 . I had a S trim- everybody and their brother has one of these .... (at least it seems like it) edelbrock 6037 heads, GT-40 intake-lower ported, 1 5/8 lt headers, C4 and 3:55 gears. Nothing fancy here. But it worked and when I went over to this type of tuning, my performance kept going and going until I leveled off af at my 10.13 . Again, this way might not work for you, if it don't work , just change it back. |
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dwell is the coil on time (primary side) when the processor gives it power before breaking it. The dwell is how long the coil is "on" saturated, before the circuit is opened inducing the secondary spark to fire the plugs. Less dwell time (primary on time) creates less of a magnetic field in the primary coil, which will induce a smaller voltage in the secondary. If you have MSD ignition and coil, though, you don't really need as much dwell time because the system is designed for multiple spark discharge which has small dwell time anyway. On stock engines, though, removing the spout may not work because it's designed to have a certain dwell at a certain engine speed/load, it's worth a try because there's no harm in the consequences. I just didn't hear any negatives to the spout theory, thought i'd be the party pooper :D
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Ok,
My .02.. I have the timing locked with the spout out on my 95 gt (see sig) .. I picked up a ton of low end with this mod (before removing spout with the sucky timing curve on the 94-95 processor it would ping with more than 10 degrees intitial when it would go into drive.. now i run 34 total and with the high torque stater that comes on 92 and newer mustangs it carnks fine AND it picked up 3 FULL TENTHS NA and 2 tenths on bottle :D :D My car is DRIVEN DAILY and has been nothing but better with this change.. And whoever it was that stated it would take away low end has their wires crossed it HELPS torque and low end.. All A9L and A9P processors add 20 degrees to base timing.. They add it at differing times (the p is a auto computer and the L is a 5 spd processor) But idealy on a Performance car you want your total in as early as possible this promotes torque, throttle response , etc.. As for the misfire problem with the reduced dwell time it might be a problem with a stock ignition car BUT with a MSD it is not nor do i see it to ever be .. (i have heard of some stock cars with the timing locked via spout removal having a top end bang) Ever car will be different in the amount of timing they like. It depends on the head, cam, etc.. Most motors will make best et and mph at anywhere from 30-38 degrees of total timing.. Some stock headed cars may like slightly more due to a more INefficient combustion chamber requireing more ignition lead to get a good burn.. I never run anything but pump gas so just because you lock timing does NOT mean you need race gas :rolleyes: I have done this to MANY blower setups on fox body cars with good results by being able to have more initial and use a btm to pull out timing as the boost hits.. Thereby making the car have more throttle response and low end before the boost hits under light throttle.. Just my .02 |
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"Total timing vs initial timing for max HP" This site won't let me post it again. They ought to link it up and show the link at least!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Back to the original idea in the thread, I pulled my spout and set my bast to 30 something deg and ran it without the spout, and hit my best time of a 14.2 (I know, still slow). Just for comparitive values, I re-set the timing to 26 deg base, and put the spout back in, and ran the same et on the next run. I am not sure about the mph on each run, but I'm sure they were close. But that is just my expiernces, all cars run a little different.
Caymon |
Caymon, you are living dangerously if you put the spout back in after having the base timing at 26. A compairable test is 30 degrees base, no spout, and then run it at 14 degrees base with the spout in.
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Ya, you know, I appologize, that was a typo. I set it back to 16deg and put the spout back in. Sorry about that. Long day.
Caymon |
Re: Total timing vs initial timing for max HP.
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