![SEARCH](http://www.mustangworks.com/images/search.png)
![The Mustang Works](http://www.mustangworks.com/images/mw_footer_logo.gif)
© Copyright 1995 thru 2008 - The Mustang Works™. All Rights Reserved.
MustangWorks.com is designed and hosted by Aero3 Media.
MustangWorks.com is designed and hosted by Aero3 Media.
|
![]() |
#1 |
Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Staging lane
Posts: 4,337
|
![]() My 90LX is ready fror some track time. I normaly run the timing at 12 degrees initial cause I have a superchip.
Alot of guys are running like 38 degrees of total timing with the spout connector removed and they say that the car runs better that way cause the ECU's timing tables suck. Can I run total timing with the spout connector removed with the superchip? By removing the spout connector I am taking away the ECU's ability to control the timing right? If anyone has positive or negative experience running an EFI 5.0 HO with total timing I would love to here it. Every little bit counts. Thanks,
__________________
92' LX-Big brakes, Lots and lots of suspension, GT40X heads, Ported cobra intake, stock cam, Vortech SC trim. 00' Lightning-Stock 88'CRX-13 second ego killer |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#2 |
I'd rather be basketweaving
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 2,551
|
![]() You are also removing the superchip's ability to control timing as well.
I have been meaning to try total timing at the track, but haven't gotten around to it yet. I think 38 may be a little high. I think I remember someone telling me that anything beyond 34 and it will have a hard time starting, or not start at all. I'll let ya know how it goes whenever I get around to trying it
__________________
NMRA O/C 9516 NA pumpgas stickshift 347 10.65@125.6, 6.73@100, 1.41 60ft |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#3 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Ventura, California
Posts: 8,981
|
![]() Yeah, yanking the spout defeats the chip. Anyway, daily driving it that way is very bad, and the info I have SEEN claims there are no gains at all below 4000 rpms, and in fact the power is lower below 4000 roms. Minor gains should be found above that, though.
From personal, first hand experience? I dunno, I'd never do that to a vehicle I owned. I know you wouldn't leave it like that for the drive home, though, so take a 7/16" distributor wrench, a timing light, and be our guinea pig. ![]() If you try this, make it a point to let me know how it did. I'm always looking for information from a reliable source. lol. ![]() Take care, ~Chris
__________________
Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local
RED & WHITE! |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#4 | |
I'd rather be basketweaving
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 2,551
|
![]() Quote:
![]()
__________________
NMRA O/C 9516 NA pumpgas stickshift 347 10.65@125.6, 6.73@100, 1.41 60ft |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#5 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Ventura, California
Posts: 8,981
|
![]() thank you. It was a very long day yesterday. lol
![]() Take care, ~Chris
__________________
Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local
RED & WHITE! |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#6 |
Registered Member
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 100
|
![]() Let me throw a wrench in the works here. How about total advance timing?
This is your timing with the spout in and the engine above 3000 rpm. I personally never pull the spout, I always check timing at total advance. The highest I would take this is 36 degrees. What octane fuel are you running? Murdock |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#7 | |
Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Staging lane
Posts: 4,337
|
![]() Quote:
I will run 36 degrees of total timing and see what happens. I am just trying to hit a high 12 by any means necessary. With my luck i will probably run a 13 flat or a 13.1 ![]() Later,
__________________
92' LX-Big brakes, Lots and lots of suspension, GT40X heads, Ported cobra intake, stock cam, Vortech SC trim. 00' Lightning-Stock 88'CRX-13 second ego killer |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#8 | |
Registered Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Phoenix Az. by way of fredericton, NB Canada
Posts: 73
|
![]() Quote:
The gains are below 4000, not above, someone misled you. I'll be heading to the track Saturday, I'll let you know how it goes, but, I can tell you that on the street, I have much more tq below 4000... That is all I know.
__________________
'92 coupe, stock motor stock suspension, full weight. MAM, full exhaust, clutch, gears and air bag, otherwise, factory original. best 1/4 = 12.960 @ 104.0mph |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#9 |
Sober voice of Reason
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: Kelowna, B.C., Canada
Posts: 1,514
|
![]() With G-tech testing (I know, ultrareliable
![]()
__________________
393W: AFR 205's, hydraulic roller, TKO600. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#10 |
Registered Member
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Amarillo, Texas, USA
Posts: 780
|
![]() Since you folks brought it up, I have to ask. Total timing vs. static timing. What is the degree of advance past static for a 5.0? I have been trying to run between 12 and 16 degrees static advance but what does this get me in total advance? Also, is this something I can check with a timing light or is it a calculated setting?
Thanks for any help you can provide.
__________________
1986 four-eyed LX coupe, 358 Cleveland, Tremec TKO600/centerforce clutch, dish cut Probe forged pistons, comp cams hyd.roller cam, .579/.588@224/230, Edel.performer, 670 holley street avenger, CPR custom built long tubes, ported and polished 4bbl heads, manley valves, beehive springs, MSD peo-billet dist/MSD6AL, fluidamper, 5 lug conv. with 17x8 bullits there's more but it's still not finished yet. Oh, and the oldest boy is turning his 89 GT into a FFR cobra this next summer. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#11 |
I'd rather be basketweaving
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 2,551
|
![]() The amount of timing advance is different for the different computers used in the 5.0L mustang. Pulling the spout out gets rid of the computers ability to control timing, so this is why you set your timing at total with the spout out, and leave it out.
__________________
NMRA O/C 9516 NA pumpgas stickshift 347 10.65@125.6, 6.73@100, 1.41 60ft |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#12 |
Registered Member
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: INDIANAPOLIS
Posts: 404
|
![]() 5ohpatrol is right, every computers advance is different as well as their total timing. There are a few basic rules of thumb that people look at. One is WOT timing. The EEC adds 15-16 degrees of timing to the base timing. So if base is 10 degrees plus the EEC of 16 , total advance during WOT should be about 25-26 degrees. There are certain EEC's out there with more aggressive timing/fuel maps in their. Most people get the A9L or A9P. I had the oppertuninty to see the timing MAP of a A9L at WOT. From what I could see, the EEC doesn't put in all the 16 degrees at WOT. It waits to about 3000 rpm until its all in. So thats where the spout out, high base timing helps. It will give you more power due to higher timing in the curve. If you run a chip and remove the spout, you are only effecting the timing and timng only. The fuel maps, if changed, will still work fine.
__________________
old S trim combo 10.13@ 135 New YS combo = 680RWHP (no times) |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#13 |
Registered Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Phoenix Az. by way of fredericton, NB Canada
Posts: 73
|
![]() density altitude today was 2650... (12.9 run was d/a 1600)
car ran 4 pass's, all 13.0x's @ high 102's low 103's 60's are still off, driver is leaving too soft... lack of seat time recently... With low 1.7 60's rather than mid/high 1.7's, and with better air, it has low/mid 12.8's in it for certian. Total timing works in theory at this point, but still no time slip to talk about... just theory and excuses... ![]()
__________________
'92 coupe, stock motor stock suspension, full weight. MAM, full exhaust, clutch, gears and air bag, otherwise, factory original. best 1/4 = 12.960 @ 104.0mph |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#14 |
Get down.....
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Room 103
Posts: 2,095
|
![]() i thought the computer also gets information for the fuel curve from the distributor? i dont really understand why you want to pull the spout and run just from that. i really dont believe when you pull the spout you are just effecting timing also. the computer generates pulse width from other sensors and from the distributor firing. If the computer does add an additional 16 degrees at WOT, why not just set the distributor at 16(total of roughly 32) or higher and let it go from there? Does the computer start throwing in the timing only at 3000 grand and up? How do you know? I would assume your wouldnt benefit off the line with the spout disconnected unless you are launching at a very high RPM. Besides, you would have to keep those RPM's up to achieve the power you would want to keep your total timing effective. I cant see how 32 degrees of timing would help at 1500-3000 RPM's. But if it works, i would be stumped
![]() Also, i have not seen anyone mention the heat range of the plugs either. James
__________________
Cobra brakes are on! Finally..... ------------------------------------------------ |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#15 |
Registered Member
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: INDIANAPOLIS
Posts: 404
|
![]() SRV1, the spout connector does timing and timing only. It has nothing to do with fuel or fuel maps, The beneffits of using high base timing without a spout are you no longer have to rely on the EEC to change the timing. The EEC will change the timing if it sees it as too hot/cold . Its very hard to be consistant when racing when the EEC moves around due to temp conditions. Also, if you leave the spout in and have total WOT advance at 32 degrees, it would take a little over 3000 rpm to be at 32 degrees. If you launched your car at 2000 rpm, would you want 24 degrees or 32 degrees ? I would want 32 degrees for better low end and better 60ft times (traction permitting). We just had a huge discussion on the corral about this same subject. I will find it and bring the link over here for you guys to see.
This is a free mod. If it don't work for you, simply put it back where it was before. Every car is different, some might work, some might not. I ran my old S trim car this way and it worked great, loved it. I had to abandon it due to the quest for nines.
__________________
old S trim combo 10.13@ 135 New YS combo = 680RWHP (no times) |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#16 |
Registered Member
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: INDIANAPOLIS
Posts: 404
|
![]() read this thread. We are talking mostly about superchargers, but the idea is still the same.
http://www.corral.net/forums/showthr...hreadid=257283
__________________
old S trim combo 10.13@ 135 New YS combo = 680RWHP (no times) |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#17 |
Registered Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Phoenix Az. by way of fredericton, NB Canada
Posts: 73
|
![]() You've made some good points.
If the computer gets fuel info from the dist., than that would explain my milage. I've gone from 19mpg city, to 17mpg city. I figured it was the warmer weather and the switch to aerated gas that we are blessed with here in Phoenix durring the warmer months. To get 60' in the low 1.7's on stock suspension and with stock HP is requiring dumping the clutch at 5000+rpms. If I were running street tires the total timing would make getting out of the hole very difficult with the add'd response/tq down low. On street tires (not dr's) the car would break the tires loose at the top of second with 15* initial and spout in, but now with spout out and 36*, I can break them loose in second at any time with just a stab of the gas. I'm not certian, but I 'thought' the computer add as much as 16*, but it was dependant on a host of things not just throttle position, and, depending on what the computer is reading, you may not get the full 16*. I 'thought' that it would add as miuch as 16*, but that it came on in incraments with rpm. The heat thing is an interesting point as well. On the street the car runs a very small amount warmer, stock guages, so I don't know what the numbers are, just that it's slightly higher now. I've not experienced any detonation on the street or at the track however. I should note, that I don't drive hard on the street, the odd romp, but my street driving would be more akin to Jessie, than Luke or Bo (all of the Duke family). I think I'll be throwing the spout back in for daily driving duties, and leaving the total timing for the track, see if the temps drop back a little and if my mileage goes back up. I'm defintaly pulling it at the track... to run 6/100ths off my best time, with worse 60's and worse air conditions, it is definatly a track trick... That's all.
__________________
'92 coupe, stock motor stock suspension, full weight. MAM, full exhaust, clutch, gears and air bag, otherwise, factory original. best 1/4 = 12.960 @ 104.0mph |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#18 |
Registered Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Phoenix Az. by way of fredericton, NB Canada
Posts: 73
|
![]() 302man...
you type faster than me... both your responses came while I was 2 finger tappin'.
__________________
'92 coupe, stock motor stock suspension, full weight. MAM, full exhaust, clutch, gears and air bag, otherwise, factory original. best 1/4 = 12.960 @ 104.0mph |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#19 |
Registered Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Saint Louis, MO
Posts: 634
|
![]() For those of you who have not seen a EEC timing table, I attached one to this thread. I believe 302man's method of setting up a blown engine with the BTM is a good idea for "spirited" driving. You'll see the table and it's modifiers for driving at less than wide open throttle (WOT) and then at the bottom is the table used for WOT. Keep in mind that this table reflects timing added ABOVE base timing as the computer can only add to the base setting. This is ONE A9L table and if you have one, this may not be your exact table as they do vary from car-to-car and year-to-year.
Notice that timing can actually get well beyond 30* and that is why 302man's suggestion works as well as it does. At WOT the EEC is trying to add timing at the same time the BTM is trying to pull timing. Even in a naturally aspirated car, it's good to pull some timing as rpm increases to maximum and then add it back as rpm falls to keep torque as close to peak as possible.
__________________
Tom (Torque) Moss 88Gt 5spd Vert, FLowmaster Catbacks, stock cam advanced 4° @ 108.5° ICL, NMRA prepped GT40P heads 1.85/1.55 valves and 1.7 rockers, MAC P headers Jet-Hot coated, 97 Exlporer intake (ported lower), TB and injectors. 277RWHP/330RWTQ (SAE). http://www.fastlanecars.com/ |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#20 |
Registered Member
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: INDIANAPOLIS
Posts: 404
|
![]() Tmoss, can you send me that info ? That is great stuff and its hard to find. I would like to hold onto it if possible.
BTW, do you know HRSPLAY or Cuda ? They are from over there.
__________________
old S trim combo 10.13@ 135 New YS combo = 680RWHP (no times) Last edited by 302man; 03-30-2003 at 12:08 PM.. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|
|
![]() |
||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Total timing? | red82gt | Windsor Power | 35 | 12-08-2002 01:53 AM |
initial timing? | 66StangGuy | Classic Mustangs | 5 | 04-01-2002 09:42 AM |
Total Timing or Computer Timing. What is the deal once and for all! | 89FHPLX | Windsor Power | 21 | 01-29-2002 10:08 PM |
Initial and total timing for 289? | 69roadrunner | Classic Mustangs | 4 | 12-27-2001 09:34 PM |
**LARGEST MODULAR RACING PURSE EVER IS RELEASED** | Dave King | Modular Madness | 0 | 04-02-2000 07:45 AM |