Pneumatic Valvetrain!

gtsr515 · 05-09-2002, 08:47 PM

Pneumatic valvetrain, such as used in Formula One, does any of you engineer types know/explain how the actual timing events are actuated and accomplished?

This is how they achieve those ungoddly high rpms!

PKRWUD · 05-10-2002, 04:18 AM

You ain't seen nothing yet!

Wait until we all go to a 42 volt system in a few years. Virtually EVERYTHING will be electric, or electrically controlled. Valve timing, cooling system flow, oil pressure, etc.

It's going to be a whole new world, and it's less than 10 years away.

Take care,
-Chris

302 LX Eric · 05-10-2002, 10:24 AM

Chris - are you referring to the magnetic valve control systems that are under development? I watched a TLC or Discovery Channel program on futuristic cars/engines and they devoted a segment of the show to this new magnetic valve train system. I thought it seemed really doable and was very interested in it. Could you imagine the friction reduction, not to mention the reciprocating weight reductions in losing the pushrods, lifters and cam!

Neat stuff.

E

gtsr515 · 05-10-2002, 11:45 AM

I could care less about that, I asked about Pneumatic valvetrain, and how it works, It's a free country and all, but why respond to a post without an answer?

I was really looking forward to an explaination.

Agent_4573 · 05-10-2002, 12:47 PM

Wow... an electrically controlled valve system would be awsome.. you could hook everything up your laptop and control opening height, duration and everything... no need for a new cam...

302 LX Eric · 05-10-2002, 01:09 PM

How many times are you going to chasitise people about not replying exactly as you want them to? There are 1000's of posts that get way off track - this isn't one of them. I simply replied directly to Chris, not to you.

Although my reply did not specifically answer your question, it was along the lines of new technologies in valve train and was, I thought, somewhere in the ballpark. Obviously, you are seeking only 'answers' to your questions. Well, I've got news for you: A total of ZERO people on this board have pneumatic valvetrain, so my guess would be that you're going to get next to no replies on the topic - much less a technical breakdown on how the whole pneumatic system operates. Try an F1 related site.

Afterall, this is the Windsor Power forum and your question/topic has nothing to do with Windsor engines. I could chastise you about this, but I didn't and would not do so.

This is a friendly Mustang board that accomodates many topics, even if they're not *exactly* within the Forum's parameters. For your information, this goes for replies as well.

Thanks for your understanding and I look forward to 'friendlier' posts in the future.

E

gtsr515 · 05-10-2002, 02:17 PM

If you asked me what time it was and I said "I don't know, but my buddy saw this T.V. show on clocks once." wouldn't that frustrate you a little, maybe not, but it does me. I will continue to chastize people for answering my questions (nobody else's) that way as long as they keep answering them that way, that's my choice, not yours. And of course I was only seeking "answers" to my question, thats why I asked it. What else would I be looking for? I guess I just get tired of asking questions and getting no answers, just conjecture and guesses and "what my buddy saw on T.V." and that turns out to be nothing to do with Pneumatic Valvetrain. So if you know who I am on the forums, past or in the future, and you see me ask a question and you don't know the answer, don't reply. And of course no one here has pneumatic valvetrain here! I didn't ask if anyone did either! And genius, how do you know that nobody has pneumatic valvetrain here?, you don't even know what it is!. You have thanked me prematurely for my understanding, I don't understand?, whats wrong with asking for answers to my questions?. Your right. this is a Windsor forum, F1 stuff has no business here, but I've tried the F1 sites, they are pretty much worthless for technical questions, FORD races in F1, and I know there are lots of guy's here that watch it, I've talked to them before, if "works" had a F1 forum, I would have posted it there, I posted it here, because I felt this is where someone might know. Your not chastizing me!?!?, BULL$HIT!

I said it was a free country, after your guesses, or whatever they were, I was not being nasty, I understand you can say what you want, when you want, to whomever you want, wherever you want, and that is fine, thats the beauty of this country, what I keep asking, or chastizing, as you put it, is....IF YOU DONT KNOW THE ANSWER TO MY QUESTION, DONT REPLY!, is it that hard to understand? Chris, as far as I can tell is okay, and really smart, I'm sure you are too, but if you don't mind, I prefer answers to my questions.

Mr 5 0 · 05-10-2002, 03:43 PM

gtsr515:

Generally, if I don't know the answer, I don't reply to the question (at least on technical forums; opinion forums like the Blue Oval Lounge are an entirely different situation). What's the point?

That said, we can't dictate what other folks choose to reply to or how they reply. I would suggest that if the reply isn't revelant to your question to just ignore it. If the thread gets off on a tangent, try it again, worded differently. Stay calm if possible.

I dug up some info from an F1 site that may help you out:

Pneumatic valve closing in modern F-1 engines is via a very high pressure air pump. The valves are opened somewhat 'normally' via a camshaft (or camshafts). The cams can open the valves OK but a phenomena called hysterisis prevents springs from acting quickly enough to provide rapid enough closure. Hence - Renault (might have been Peugeot) came up with the very novel idea of slamming the valves shut with high pressure air. That is .... the cam action is working against a constant, high-pressure air load on the backside of the intake and exhaust valves. When there's no cam acting upon the valve lifter ... the valve will close. This ensures that the closing of the valves is in exact following with the lowest point or "dead" profile of the camshaft.

Hope this helps.

gtsr515 · 05-10-2002, 05:21 PM

It sure did, thanks for answering my question. And exactly!, IN A TECH FORUM, IF YOU DONT KNOW THE ANSWER, DONT REPLY!, if your lounging, or street racing, in those forums, "conjecture" and "wild guess" and "what your buddy saw on T.V." are okay, even welcome.

It was Renault that pioneered pneumatic valvetrain, I always wondered what supplied the pressure to close the valves?, An air pump!, geez, I was thinking something way more sophisticated. I'm re-routing mine in the morning! (just kidding).

Did you know there are over 100 sensors on a modern F1 car? I like the "clutch material depth sensor" and the "driver heart-rate sensor", neat huh?, next they will come with restrooms. LOL

Thanks again 5 0

PKRWUD · 05-11-2002, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 302 LX Eric
How many times are you going to chasitise people about not replying exactly as you want them to? There are 1000's of posts that get way off track - this isn't one of them. I simply replied directly to Chris, not to you.

I'm going to start a thread about it, so feel free to say what ever you want to there. I'll start it in this forum, but it may get bounced to BOL.

gtsr1515
You're welcome there too.

Even if all you want to talk about is silly pneumatic valvetrain.

Take care,
-Chris

gtsr515 · 05-11-2002, 11:24 AM

Silly pneumatic valvetrain? Considering every top team in Formula One uses it, and Formula One is the highest form of racing on the planet, maybe you can come up with a better way.

PKRWUD · 05-11-2002, 12:09 PM

I was being sarcastic.

Take care,
-Chris

Mr 5 0 · 05-11-2002, 12:23 PM

I was being sarcastic.

- Chris

I knew that.

PKRWUD · 05-11-2002, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr 5 0
I was being sarcastic.

- Chris

I knew that.

Know you didn't. You're just saying that to impress people.

Take care,
-Chris

Mr 5 0 · 05-11-2002, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PKRWUD

Know you didn't. You're just saying that to impress people.

Way too late for that, now.

PKRWUD · 05-11-2002, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr 5 0

Way too late for that, now.

HAH! Everyone knows your replies are all scripted! Your wife probably writes them all up months in advance, covering as many topics as she can think of!

Please.

Take care,
-Chris

Mr 5 0 · 05-11-2002, 05:24 PM

Wrong again, nitrous breath!

Actually, I pay a college kid to write my replies. A smart college kid, too! Reads books; Shakespeare and all that stuff and newspapers too, and not just the comics! Composes a sentence as nice as you could ever want. Yep. Doesn't even use the spell checker thingy, either. Does research for me, too, so I can pretend to know what the hell I'm talkin' about here.

Of course, you and I know that I'm barely literate myself but don't be tellin' folks this as it'll make me look bad. Besides, if you keep quiet, I won't let on how you get all your technical info from books and an old hermit mechanic you pay off for information by giving him your outdated car magazines. Your typist ain't anywhere as good as mine, either, Bucko, but then, I pay mine more. Don't ask.

Say, what does all this have to do with Pneumatic Valvetrains, anyway?

Chris, I gotta go so thanks for the chat. You're always amusing but I'm sure all the girls tell you that, too. I'm offline for now. Carry on.

Manana.

PKRWUD · 05-12-2002, 03:14 AM

Okay. I hope it was lovely.

Looks like I'm the one who left yesterday and didn't say farewell! I was up half the night, and had to do some fleet work again late tonight, so I went to bed around 4 or so yesterday. My schedule gets so screwed up when I do fleets. Oh well.

It was an entertaining day yesterday. Enjoyed it.

Take care,
-Chris

05-09-2002, 08:47 PM	#1
gtsr515 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Sunny, Hot, Sebring, Florida Posts: 725	Pneumatic Valvetrain! Pneumatic valvetrain, such as used in Formula One, does any of you engineer types know/explain how the actual timing events are actuated and accomplished? This is how they achieve those ungoddly high rpms! __________________ Remember...2nd place is 1st place for losers!

05-10-2002, 04:18 AM	#2
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	You ain't seen nothing yet! Wait until we all go to a 42 volt system in a few years. Virtually EVERYTHING will be electric, or electrically controlled. Valve timing, cooling system flow, oil pressure, etc. It's going to be a whole new world, and it's less than 10 years away. Take care, -Chris __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

05-10-2002, 10:24 AM	#3
302 LX Eric or '331 LX Eric' Join Date: Jan 1999 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 2,142	Chris - are you referring to the magnetic valve control systems that are under development? I watched a TLC or Discovery Channel program on futuristic cars/engines and they devoted a segment of the show to this new magnetic valve train system. I thought it seemed really doable and was very interested in it. Could you imagine the friction reduction, not to mention the reciprocating weight reductions in losing the pushrods, lifters and cam! Neat stuff. E __________________ 1991 5.0 LX Coupe - 40,750 miles 331 cu. in. / Tremec 3550 / BFG Drag Radials 12.22 @ 114.31 mph - w/1.89 60'

05-10-2002, 11:45 AM	#4
gtsr515 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Sunny, Hot, Sebring, Florida Posts: 725	I could care less about that, I asked about Pneumatic valvetrain, and how it works, It's a free country and all, but why respond to a post without an answer? I was really looking forward to an explaination. __________________ Remember...2nd place is 1st place for losers!

05-10-2002, 12:47 PM	#5
Agent_4573 Registered Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: New Jersey Posts: 375	Wow... an electrically controlled valve system would be awsome.. you could hook everything up your laptop and control opening height, duration and everything... no need for a new cam... __________________ '89 LX 5.0, off-road h pipe, flowmaster muffs, underdrive pulleys, rebuilt WC T-5, King Cobra Clutch, 65mm throttle body, Explorer Upper/GT40 lower, Lakewood Rear Lift Bars. 76mm C&L Mass air w/ inlet pipe, Twisted wedge heads w/ stage 2 port,polish, MAC equal length shorties, Billet AFPR, 255LPH fuel pump, fresh low end w/ 10.5:1 compression. If anyone ever wants to go to Raceway Park in Englishtown New Jersey, give me a shout. RICER HATERS CLUB MEMBER 87! www.ricehatersclub.com

05-10-2002, 01:09 PM	#6
302 LX Eric or '331 LX Eric' Join Date: Jan 1999 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 2,142	How many times are you going to chasitise people about not replying exactly as you want them to? There are 1000's of posts that get way off track - this isn't one of them. I simply replied directly to Chris, not to you. Although my reply did not specifically answer your question, it was along the lines of new technologies in valve train and was, I thought, somewhere in the ballpark. Obviously, you are seeking only 'answers' to your questions. Well, I've got news for you: A total of ZERO people on this board have pneumatic valvetrain, so my guess would be that you're going to get next to no replies on the topic - much less a technical breakdown on how the whole pneumatic system operates. Try an F1 related site. Afterall, this is the Windsor Power forum and your question/topic has nothing to do with Windsor engines. I could chastise you about this, but I didn't and would not do so. This is a friendly Mustang board that accomodates many topics, even if they're not exactly within the Forum's parameters. For your information, this goes for replies as well. Thanks for your understanding and I look forward to 'friendlier' posts in the future. E __________________ 1991 5.0 LX Coupe - 40,750 miles 331 cu. in. / Tremec 3550 / BFG Drag Radials 12.22 @ 114.31 mph - w/1.89 60'

05-10-2002, 02:17 PM	#7
gtsr515 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Sunny, Hot, Sebring, Florida Posts: 725	If you asked me what time it was and I said "I don't know, but my buddy saw this T.V. show on clocks once." wouldn't that frustrate you a little, maybe not, but it does me. I will continue to chastize people for answering my questions (nobody else's) that way as long as they keep answering them that way, that's my choice, not yours. And of course I was only seeking "answers" to my question, thats why I asked it. What else would I be looking for? I guess I just get tired of asking questions and getting no answers, just conjecture and guesses and "what my buddy saw on T.V." and that turns out to be nothing to do with Pneumatic Valvetrain. So if you know who I am on the forums, past or in the future, and you see me ask a question and you don't know the answer, don't reply. And of course no one here has pneumatic valvetrain here! I didn't ask if anyone did either! And genius, how do you know that nobody has pneumatic valvetrain here?, you don't even know what it is!. You have thanked me prematurely for my understanding, I don't understand?, whats wrong with asking for answers to my questions?. Your right. this is a Windsor forum, F1 stuff has no business here, but I've tried the F1 sites, they are pretty much worthless for technical questions, FORD races in F1, and I know there are lots of guy's here that watch it, I've talked to them before, if "works" had a F1 forum, I would have posted it there, I posted it here, because I felt this is where someone might know. Your not chastizing me!?!?, BULL$HIT! I said it was a free country, after your guesses, or whatever they were, I was not being nasty, I understand you can say what you want, when you want, to whomever you want, wherever you want, and that is fine, thats the beauty of this country, what I keep asking, or chastizing, as you put it, is....IF YOU DONT KNOW THE ANSWER TO MY QUESTION, DONT REPLY!, is it that hard to understand? Chris, as far as I can tell is okay, and really smart, I'm sure you are too, but if you don't mind, I prefer answers to my questions. __________________ Remember...2nd place is 1st place for losers!

05-10-2002, 03:43 PM	#8
Mr 5 0 Conservative Individualist Join Date: May 1997 Location: Wherever I need to be Posts: 7,487	Pneumatic valve train gtsr515: Generally, if I don't know the answer, I don't reply to the question (at least on technical forums; opinion forums like the Blue Oval Lounge are an entirely different situation). What's the point? That said, we can't dictate what other folks choose to reply to or how they reply. I would suggest that if the reply isn't revelant to your question to just ignore it. If the thread gets off on a tangent, try it again, worded differently. Stay calm if possible. I dug up some info from an F1 site that may help you out: Pneumatic valve closing in modern F-1 engines is via a very high pressure air pump. The valves are opened somewhat 'normally' via a camshaft (or camshafts). The cams can open the valves OK but a phenomena called hysterisis prevents springs from acting quickly enough to provide rapid enough closure. Hence - Renault (might have been Peugeot) came up with the very novel idea of slamming the valves shut with high pressure air. That is .... the cam action is working against a constant, high-pressure air load on the backside of the intake and exhaust valves. When there's no cam acting upon the valve lifter ... the valve will close. This ensures that the closing of the valves is in exact following with the lowest point or "dead" profile of the camshaft. Hope this helps.

05-10-2002, 05:21 PM	#9
gtsr515 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Sunny, Hot, Sebring, Florida Posts: 725	It sure did, thanks for answering my question. And exactly!, IN A TECH FORUM, IF YOU DONT KNOW THE ANSWER, DONT REPLY!, if your lounging, or street racing, in those forums, "conjecture" and "wild guess" and "what your buddy saw on T.V." are okay, even welcome. It was Renault that pioneered pneumatic valvetrain, I always wondered what supplied the pressure to close the valves?, An air pump!, geez, I was thinking something way more sophisticated. I'm re-routing mine in the morning! (just kidding). Did you know there are over 100 sensors on a modern F1 car? I like the "clutch material depth sensor" and the "driver heart-rate sensor", neat huh?, next they will come with restrooms. LOL Thanks again 5 0 __________________ Remember...2nd place is 1st place for losers! Last edited by gtsr515; 05-10-2002 at 05:27 PM..

05-11-2002, 11:24 AM	#11
gtsr515 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Sunny, Hot, Sebring, Florida Posts: 725	Silly pneumatic valvetrain? Considering every top team in Formula One uses it, and Formula One is the highest form of racing on the planet, maybe you can come up with a better way. __________________ Remember...2nd place is 1st place for losers!

05-11-2002, 12:09 PM	#12
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	I was being sarcastic. Take care, -Chris __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

05-11-2002, 12:23 PM	#13
Mr 5 0 Conservative Individualist Join Date: May 1997 Location: Wherever I need to be Posts: 7,487	Sarcasm alert I was being sarcastic. - Chris I knew that.

05-11-2002, 05:24 PM	#17
Mr 5 0 Conservative Individualist Join Date: May 1997 Location: Wherever I need to be Posts: 7,487	Exposed! Wrong again, nitrous breath! Actually, I pay a college kid to write my replies. A smart college kid, too! Reads books; Shakespeare and all that stuff and newspapers too, and not just the comics! Composes a sentence as nice as you could ever want. Yep. Doesn't even use the spell checker thingy, either. Does research for me, too, so I can pretend to know what the hell I'm talkin' about here. Of course, you and I know that I'm barely literate myself but don't be tellin' folks this as it'll make me look bad. Besides, if you keep quiet, I won't let on how you get all your technical info from books and an old hermit mechanic you pay off for information by giving him your outdated car magazines. Your typist ain't anywhere as good as mine, either, Bucko, but then, I pay mine more. Don't ask. Say, what does all this have to do with Pneumatic Valvetrains, anyway? Chris, I gotta go so thanks for the chat. You're always amusing but I'm sure all the girls tell you that, too. I'm offline for now. Carry on. Manana.

05-12-2002, 03:14 AM	#18
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Okay. I hope it was lovely. Looks like I'm the one who left yesterday and didn't say farewell! I was up half the night, and had to do some fleet work again late tonight, so I went to bed around 4 or so yesterday. My schedule gets so screwed up when I do fleets. Oh well. It was an entertaining day yesterday. Enjoyed it. Take care, -Chris __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

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