What makes a weld job a quality weld job?

BlackFireN2O · 09-01-2002, 09:10 PM

When i had posted on this forum (and others as well) about doing my own welding, most said to let the professinals handle it. But i ask, other than just being more "experienced," what makes a quality weld job quality. In other words, what makes a weld job that i would do different from a weld that a pro would do, are there any specific things that make it sturdy? Or do people just think that welding is a "black art" and should be left to the pros, so they blindly hand over their car to the "pro's." Thanks in advance for responses!

RM2 · 09-01-2002, 09:31 PM

It depends if you want a structurally strong weld or a cosmetic weld? If you tell me more about what you want to weld and what it is you expect from this weld I will try to help!

BlackFireN2O · 09-01-2002, 10:47 PM

Well, i want to weld a roll bar, subframe connectors, exhaust, basically everything that needs welding. Seeing as i am not a millionaire (just a high school student) i dont have lots of money to spend. Tell me what you think.

lx5091 · 09-01-2002, 10:53 PM

don't take this as gospel because I don't think my explanation will do it justice, but..

when welding you want to lay down a good strong "bead" right off the bat, and not have to "go over" or redo a section over what you've done. What can happen is you can create weak spots that WILL CRACK under nominal pressure. If you do have to redo over a weld it is best to grind smooth what is there as opposed to "filling in" between sections of a weld you have laid down. I wish I had some pictures of some practice peices I could show you.
You DON'T want blobs over blobs, you DO want a nice consistant, solid bead.

PKRWUD · 09-02-2002, 05:16 AM

Like any skill, welding just takes time to learn. If you've never welded before, don't even think about welding anything important like a rollbar or a subframe connector until you get some experience, and by that I mean at least 25 hours. You need to get a feel for it. There are many different factors, depending on what kind of welding you're talking about.

Have you ever welded before? What kind? What equipment do you have? What are you planning on using?

Take care,
~Chris

RM2 · 09-02-2002, 08:28 AM

If you want to weld whatever needs welded then it comes down to practice and prep. Depending on the person you can be running good strong welds within a day easy. The problem is there are other people out there that cant get the hang of welding to save there life. The other problem is a forum is not a good place to try and help someone learn how to weld, but I love a challenge. In my opinion welding is about 90% prep and 10% skill when you get ready to weld something clean it. I dont mean a quick wire hand brush to nock of a little rust and dirt I mean grinding wheels then wire wheels. Where you are going to weld should shine,you dont want any of the previous paint or coatings on the metal (just bare metal). Try as hard as you can to eliminate any jagged edges all smooth edges will make a more uniform weld. Even more important than that is to eliminate all gaps in metal or where the two pieces are going to join to be welded. A large gap between two pieces that are going to be welded will be weak and try to burn away on you while your welding. Now get some spare meatal of different sizes and start trying to weld. Go real slow and easy get the arc started and learn to control it. When the arc has been started, move it forward slowly. Here is a trick you have to set your heat hot enough to stay burnning but cool enough to not burn through when you try to move forward slowly! So practice getting the heat right. This should be enough to get an idea of what your after. I'm telling you clean the heck out of it and take your sweat time. Oh if it looks like crud the first time grind it out clean it up and try again.

tireburner163 · 09-02-2002, 09:04 AM

I can't for sure help you, but my dad can. He welds for a living, I'll get him on here tonight.

I'm gonna have to agree with PKRWUD, get some practice first. Fox Body recently had some bad experices with getting his brother-in-law(something like that) who was a amutuer welded to weld in his cage.

HotRoddin · 09-02-2002, 04:10 PM

First consider what kind of metal you're welding. Then you consider how thick it is. Then you look at how close it fits (are there gaps). From that you have to decide on what welding rod or wire type and size you'll need, what heat you have to set the machine at, what speed you'll need to set the wire at if its mig or what speed you need to move if its stick or tig. Then once you start welding you may have to readjust some or all those things depending on how its working. Welding is part knowledge and part hand eye cordination. Its deffinently not a black art, but it absolutely takes a bit of practice to get good at it.

<<other than just being more "experienced," what makes a quality weld job quality>>

Proper metal type, proper heat, lack of foreign material contaminating the weld, lack of gas bubbles in the weld and probably most important of all proper penetration.
How can you tell when all those things are right ? Read read read and practice practice practice.
I'm not sure i agree with RM2 about the one day thing, but it is true some pick it up much quicker than others. Its like learning to ride a bike, some pick it up right away, some take a little more time.
Now once you get started I think the most important thing you can remember is, the puddle is God ! It dictates everything you do. Watch the puddle ! Once you get started you'll understand what i mean by that.

If you don't have it, get this book it'll help you a ton !

Welders Handbook: a complete guide to mig, tig, arc & oxyacetylene welding by Richard Finch you can find it at amazon.com

PKRWUD · 09-02-2002, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HotRoddin
...Then you consider how thick it is. Then you look at how close it fits (are there gaps)... ...part knowledge and part hand eye cordination. Its deffinently not a black art, but it absolutely takes a bit of practice to get good at it.

...and probably most important of all proper penetration.
How can you tell when all those things are right ? ...practice practice practice.
I'm not sure i agree with RM2 about the one day thing, but it is true some pick it up much quicker than others. Its like learning to ride a bike, some pick it up right away, some take a little more time.
Now once you get started I think the most important thing you can remember is, the puddle is God ! It dictates everything you do. Watch the puddle ! Once you get started you'll understand what i mean by that.

Okay, it's been over a week, but I'm not that horny. You ever write to Penthouse???

Take care,
~Chris

lx5091 · 09-02-2002, 05:15 PM

Damn I almost pissed myself laughing at the last post, very good observation, Chris

ultraflo · 09-02-2002, 05:28 PM

LOL!!!!! (that's a good one) ...sick, very sick, but funny!

Practice!!!! ...that will produce the best results! Get some scrap metal and start doing butt-joint welds, T-joint welds, and lap-joint welds, vertical, horizontal, over head, etc.

I'm not well versed in the technical jargon of welding, but I can pick up a MIG, set it up properly, and lay down a good bead... I forgot all the technical stuff I learned in high-school welding class, but I work in a muffler shop and use a MIG there and have a small MIG at home that gets used occasionally... I'd never attempt a rollcage unless I had a TIG welder, ... but I've installed subframe connectors for several people at the shop before without any complaints or problems, I installed my anti-roll bar and did all the welding on my torque boxes... so I've got the hang of things

I can weld with a MIG, which is the easiest to use. I did Oxy/Acetlyene, ARC, TIG, and MIG in H.S.

So my novice advise to you would be to take a welding class at a local community college or get the book that was mentioned and start practicing!!!!

HotRoddin · 09-02-2002, 05:32 PM

<<Okay, it's been over a week, but I'm not that horny. You ever write to Penthouse???>>

After i reread that Pkrwud I realized I gotta quit goin straight from the porn sites to here !!! lolol

I still say penetration and the puddle is of prime importance ... in many areas of life

BlackFireN2O · 09-02-2002, 06:17 PM

Thanks for all the info and it is really helping aid my decision. But i have to ask if i got the book read it from cover to cover, then took a welding class, would i be competant enough to tackle all of the welding that is needed in building up my mustang? I mean if i need 25 years of practice to weld things good then i think i might have to resort to paying someone to weld my stuff. But i'm scared that if i go to a "pro" then might not even know what their doing cause there are shops that do not do quality jobs. Anyone know a good welder in the New York area, what is the average price for a roll bar (8pt) and fram connectors? Plenty Thanks!!

HotRoddin · 09-02-2002, 10:35 PM

If you pick up on it reletively fast, I'd say absolutely.

A little book learnin so you know whats goin on. Then burn some sticks so you see what you learned in action. Heck man before you know it roll cages will be childs play.... you'll be up on the 50th floor weldin the high iron

BlackFireN2O · 09-02-2002, 10:50 PM

Do you really think so because i have read so many posts that say it takes years of practice to weld something as big a job as a roll bar setup? I pick up fast but i wanna know if a rookie can handle a roll bar and other stuff and make the weld a quality job? Oh yea and how much is the hourly rate of a welder? Just gimme a ball park Thanks!

HotRoddin · 09-02-2002, 11:10 PM

No dude .. I don't think anybody said it would take years. Just tryin to let you know you're not gonna buy a welder and two days later be welding formula 1 chassis.
Take a class and by the time its over if you really put your mind to it and you pick it up at a normal pace, you should be able to weld pretty much anything you want, shy of tig welding titainium for the space shuttle ... two classes for that

Just don't get discouraged ... its like learning to ride a bike... first couple trys you'll feel really uncordinated and the welding will likely look like s*** then it will suddenly all fall into place and you'll be welding like a pro.
Prices i can't say for sure .. out here in Californy most any shop labor is from $30 an hour up ?

moc · 09-02-2002, 11:14 PM

fusion is a good word ! and bonding is also good

Unlike the real world we use a X-RAY and contour
machine that .That after it is welded we do a computer contour
graph of all surfaces and check it for voids but hey

HotRoddin · 09-02-2002, 11:18 PM

ok moc I don't know what that means but it gave me a headache ! lol

moc · 09-02-2002, 11:26 PM

fusion is a good word ! and bonding is also good

Unlike the real world we use a X-RAY and contour
machine that .That after it is welded we do a computer contour
graph of all surfaces and check it for voids but hey

moc · 09-02-2002, 11:30 PM

HotRoddin i don't matter i am doing this with composite's
anyway I love your avtar ! reminds me of my grade school days when i would constantly draw that kind of RAT

09-01-2002, 09:10 PM	#1
BlackFireN2O Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 36	What makes a weld job a quality weld job? When i had posted on this forum (and others as well) about doing my own welding, most said to let the professinals handle it. But i ask, other than just being more "experienced," what makes a quality weld job quality. In other words, what makes a weld job that i would do different from a weld that a pro would do, are there any specific things that make it sturdy? Or do people just think that welding is a "black art" and should be left to the pros, so they blindly hand over their car to the "pro's." Thanks in advance for responses!

09-01-2002, 10:53 PM	#4
lx5091 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Fall River, MA Posts: 467	don't take this as gospel because I don't think my explanation will do it justice, but.. when welding you want to lay down a good strong "bead" right off the bat, and not have to "go over" or redo a section over what you've done. What can happen is you can create weak spots that WILL CRACK under nominal pressure. If you do have to redo over a weld it is best to grind smooth what is there as opposed to "filling in" between sections of a weld you have laid down. I wish I had some pictures of some practice peices I could show you. You DON'T want blobs over blobs, you DO want a nice consistant, solid bead. __________________ '02 Explorer XLT 4.0L --Nice Vehicle '97 Saturn SL1--Soon to be ditched for a Ford!

09-02-2002, 05:16 AM	#5
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Like any skill, welding just takes time to learn. If you've never welded before, don't even think about welding anything important like a rollbar or a subframe connector until you get some experience, and by that I mean at least 25 hours. You need to get a feel for it. There are many different factors, depending on what kind of welding you're talking about. Have you ever welded before? What kind? What equipment do you have? What are you planning on using? Take care, ~Chris __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

09-02-2002, 09:04 AM	#7
tireburner163 It's a lot like a race car Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Meridian, MS Posts: 4,130	I can't for sure help you, but my dad can. He welds for a living, I'll get him on here tonight. I'm gonna have to agree with PKRWUD, get some practice first. Fox Body recently had some bad experices with getting his brother-in-law(something like that) who was a amutuer welded to weld in his cage. __________________ 1987 Buick T-type 1998 HD Electra Elide

09-02-2002, 05:15 PM	#10
lx5091 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Fall River, MA Posts: 467	Damn I almost pissed myself laughing at the last post, very good observation, Chris __________________ '02 Explorer XLT 4.0L --Nice Vehicle '97 Saturn SL1--Soon to be ditched for a Ford!

09-01-2002, 09:31 PM	#2
RM2 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 4	It depends if you want a structurally strong weld or a cosmetic weld? If you tell me more about what you want to weld and what it is you expect from this weld I will try to help!

09-01-2002, 10:47 PM	#3
BlackFireN2O Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 36	Well, i want to weld a roll bar, subframe connectors, exhaust, basically everything that needs welding. Seeing as i am not a millionaire (just a high school student) i dont have lots of money to spend. Tell me what you think.

09-02-2002, 08:28 AM	#6
RM2 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 4	If you want to weld whatever needs welded then it comes down to practice and prep. Depending on the person you can be running good strong welds within a day easy. The problem is there are other people out there that cant get the hang of welding to save there life. The other problem is a forum is not a good place to try and help someone learn how to weld, but I love a challenge. In my opinion welding is about 90% prep and 10% skill when you get ready to weld something clean it. I dont mean a quick wire hand brush to nock of a little rust and dirt I mean grinding wheels then wire wheels. Where you are going to weld should shine,you dont want any of the previous paint or coatings on the metal (just bare metal). Try as hard as you can to eliminate any jagged edges all smooth edges will make a more uniform weld. Even more important than that is to eliminate all gaps in metal or where the two pieces are going to join to be welded. A large gap between two pieces that are going to be welded will be weak and try to burn away on you while your welding. Now get some spare meatal of different sizes and start trying to weld. Go real slow and easy get the arc started and learn to control it. When the arc has been started, move it forward slowly. Here is a trick you have to set your heat hot enough to stay burnning but cool enough to not burn through when you try to move forward slowly! So practice getting the heat right. This should be enough to get an idea of what your after. I'm telling you clean the heck out of it and take your sweat time. Oh if it looks like crud the first time grind it out clean it up and try again.

09-02-2002, 04:10 PM	#8
HotRoddin cranky old man Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Longview Texas Posts: 683	First consider what kind of metal you're welding. Then you consider how thick it is. Then you look at how close it fits (are there gaps). From that you have to decide on what welding rod or wire type and size you'll need, what heat you have to set the machine at, what speed you'll need to set the wire at if its mig or what speed you need to move if its stick or tig. Then once you start welding you may have to readjust some or all those things depending on how its working. Welding is part knowledge and part hand eye cordination. Its deffinently not a black art, but it absolutely takes a bit of practice to get good at it. <<other than just being more "experienced," what makes a quality weld job quality>> Proper metal type, proper heat, lack of foreign material contaminating the weld, lack of gas bubbles in the weld and probably most important of all proper penetration. How can you tell when all those things are right ? Read read read and practice practice practice. I'm not sure i agree with RM2 about the one day thing, but it is true some pick it up much quicker than others. Its like learning to ride a bike, some pick it up right away, some take a little more time. Now once you get started I think the most important thing you can remember is, the puddle is God ! It dictates everything you do. Watch the puddle ! Once you get started you'll understand what i mean by that. If you don't have it, get this book it'll help you a ton ! Welders Handbook: a complete guide to mig, tig, arc & oxyacetylene welding by Richard Finch you can find it at amazon.com

09-02-2002, 05:28 PM	#11
ultraflo NX dealer-man Join Date: Sep 1998 Location: Peoria, Illinois Posts: 977	LOL!!!!! (that's a good one) ...sick, very sick, but funny! Practice!!!! ...that will produce the best results! Get some scrap metal and start doing butt-joint welds, T-joint welds, and lap-joint welds, vertical, horizontal, over head, etc. I'm not well versed in the technical jargon of welding, but I can pick up a MIG, set it up properly, and lay down a good bead... I forgot all the technical stuff I learned in high-school welding class, but I work in a muffler shop and use a MIG there and have a small MIG at home that gets used occasionally... I'd never attempt a rollcage unless I had a TIG welder, ... but I've installed subframe connectors for several people at the shop before without any complaints or problems, I installed my anti-roll bar and did all the welding on my torque boxes... so I've got the hang of things I can weld with a MIG, which is the easiest to use. I did Oxy/Acetlyene, ARC, TIG, and MIG in H.S. So my novice advise to you would be to take a welding class at a local community college or get the book that was mentioned and start practicing!!!! __________________ RLS Racing! 93 LX 9.20 @ 147mph 03 Mach 1 12.39 @ 116mph

09-02-2002, 05:32 PM	#12
HotRoddin cranky old man Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Longview Texas Posts: 683	<<Okay, it's been over a week, but I'm not that horny. You ever write to Penthouse???>> After i reread that Pkrwud I realized I gotta quit goin straight from the porn sites to here !!! lolol I still say penetration and the puddle is of prime importance ... in many areas of life

09-02-2002, 06:17 PM	#13
BlackFireN2O Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 36	Thanks for all the info and it is really helping aid my decision. But i have to ask if i got the book read it from cover to cover, then took a welding class, would i be competant enough to tackle all of the welding that is needed in building up my mustang? I mean if i need 25 years of practice to weld things good then i think i might have to resort to paying someone to weld my stuff. But i'm scared that if i go to a "pro" then might not even know what their doing cause there are shops that do not do quality jobs. Anyone know a good welder in the New York area, what is the average price for a roll bar (8pt) and fram connectors? Plenty Thanks!!

09-02-2002, 10:35 PM	#14
HotRoddin cranky old man Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Longview Texas Posts: 683	If you pick up on it reletively fast, I'd say absolutely. A little book learnin so you know whats goin on. Then burn some sticks so you see what you learned in action. Heck man before you know it roll cages will be childs play.... you'll be up on the 50th floor weldin the high iron

09-02-2002, 10:50 PM	#15
BlackFireN2O Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 36	Do you really think so because i have read so many posts that say it takes years of practice to weld something as big a job as a roll bar setup? I pick up fast but i wanna know if a rookie can handle a roll bar and other stuff and make the weld a quality job? Oh yea and how much is the hourly rate of a welder? Just gimme a ball park Thanks!

09-02-2002, 11:10 PM	#16
HotRoddin cranky old man Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Longview Texas Posts: 683	No dude .. I don't think anybody said it would take years. Just tryin to let you know you're not gonna buy a welder and two days later be welding formula 1 chassis. Take a class and by the time its over if you really put your mind to it and you pick it up at a normal pace, you should be able to weld pretty much anything you want, shy of tig welding titainium for the space shuttle ... two classes for that Just don't get discouraged ... its like learning to ride a bike... first couple trys you'll feel really uncordinated and the welding will likely look like s*** then it will suddenly all fall into place and you'll be welding like a pro. Prices i can't say for sure .. out here in Californy most any shop labor is from $30 an hour up ?

09-02-2002, 11:14 PM	#17
moc Registered Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ocean City , Maryland Posts: 344	Thats funny fusion is a good word ! and bonding is also good Unlike the real world we use a X-RAY and contour machine that .That after it is welded we do a computer contour graph of all surfaces and check it for voids but hey __________________ 1991 5.0 NotchBack,Black as of 05/04/09 34,300mi. 2001 LIGHTNING Black 29,872 mi. 05/04/09 (Hangar Queen) SMOKEM UP

09-02-2002, 11:18 PM	#18
HotRoddin cranky old man Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Longview Texas Posts: 683	ok moc I don't know what that means but it gave me a headache ! lol

09-02-2002, 11:26 PM	#19
moc Registered Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ocean City , Maryland Posts: 344	Thats funny fusion is a good word ! and bonding is also good Unlike the real world we use a X-RAY and contour machine that .That after it is welded we do a computer contour graph of all surfaces and check it for voids but hey __________________ 1991 5.0 NotchBack,Black as of 05/04/09 34,300mi. 2001 LIGHTNING Black 29,872 mi. 05/04/09 (Hangar Queen) SMOKEM UP

09-02-2002, 11:30 PM	#20
moc Registered Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ocean City , Maryland Posts: 344	your a good dude HotRoddin i don't matter i am doing this with composite's anyway I love your avtar ! reminds me of my grade school days when i would constantly draw that kind of RAT __________________ 1991 5.0 NotchBack,Black as of 05/04/09 34,300mi. 2001 LIGHTNING Black 29,872 mi. 05/04/09 (Hangar Queen) SMOKEM UP

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