[Mr 5 0]

Originally posted by bigwhitecobra :

Ok, that sounds good in theory. The problem with that is if I wrote the Bible and didn't want anyone to dispute it, I'd just say it was the word of God. How can you argue with God? How can we prove or disprove what someone wrote thousands of years ago?

We can't. All we can do is look at human nature and guess. I hate to use that word, but that's what it is. Guessing. Some call it faith, whatever the word, the end is the same........you'll find out when you die. Live your life as best you can, enjoy your life, and do the best you can.

You are confusing what you call 'guessing' with real faith, which I am beginning to doubt that you fully comprehend. My point is that if you wish to buy into the atheist's position that the bible is just a bunch of nice words written by mere men trying to 'establish a religion' (or whatever) then Christians are all fools and have been for 2,000 years, accepting a pack of lies as the Word of God. I don't think so. How about we put aside the atheist position and look at scripture from the other side: the Christian view. The Bible was put together over the years by men with the inspiration and guidance of God. Is Almighty God, the Creator, not able to do this? Is He not able to protect His Word from lies and distortions for the 2,000 years it's existed? Is God not able to keep the bible from becoming extinct - as many governments and men have tried to do to it over the centuries? Of course he can! If you profess God and Christ you came to your decision based on what is in the bible, where Christianity has it's basis, as God intended. If you then say: "Yes, but maybe the bible isn't really the 'Word of God' after all" (as atheists do) then you have just undercut your own faith, whether you think so or not. You are saying that the basis for what you claim to believe is probably flawed, not true and a tool of those who wanted to fool people. That makes no sense to me, but have it your way. It should be noted that all but one of the original Disciples - not counting Judas, who committed suicide - were killed in brutal ways by the authorities of the time). Most of the authors of the bible were murdered. They died for what the believed, as have many, many other Christians over the past 2,000 years. They did not die for a lie, especially the Twelve Apostles who lived with Jesus for three years and saw everything He did and were taught by Him. Yes, they all fled when He was arrested but following the Resurrection they went on to serve Him and expand His kingdom until they were killed. From the day Jesus appeared on earth as an infant, He began to change the world. The bible records that and expounds on it in the New Testament. To reject it as all a falsehood, concocted by devious men for some momentary advantage just seems foolish, to me. Of course, millions think my faith is foolish, too.


For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. - 1 Cor 1:18 How true.

So what to think? Is the Bible the word of God, or is it ebellished to fit what the church want you to think is the word of God? Either way, what's the difference, right?

As I've just explained: if you think 'the church', whoever that is to you, has 'made it all up' then you have zero basis for what you say is your 'faith'. You are taking mortal men's word for something you obviously can't comprehend and calling it faith but, as you say, it's not. That's the difference - and it's huge. If you can't grasp that fact, I can't help you, then. You are claiming Christ as your Savior but doubting the very basis for where we come to learn about Christ. That doesn't work for me. I don't trust my eternal life to 'guesses'. Atheists do that. They 'guess' what you claim: the bible is a lie and 'made up' by mere men so, ipso facto: there is no God, no Jesus, no 'salvation' and of course, what so many wish to believe: no heaven, no hell. If that's the crowd you feel more comfortable with, it's your choice. I suspect that you know better but for some reason you haven't shared here, you have started doubting the bible and so, whether you see it or not, undermining your own faith. That's sad - but it happens.

I mean, does the church endorce slavery? If not, then why is it that slavery was so common a few hundred years ago? During that time the church had such a huge influence on people's lives, it's hard to think that the church just sat idlely by and let thier congregation buy and sell slaves.

The bible never condemns slavery. It urges those who are slaves to be good one's and for masters to treat their slaves well. You didn't know that already? Do some reading, especially the 13 books in the NT written by the Apostle Paul. The bible is focused on individual behavior and living a life pleasing to God, not what governments should do or how the King should act. Scripture tells us to respect authority and unless it contradicts the bible, to obey the law and pay our taxes, etc, but it is not a manual for social justice, except as it applies to our own behavior as Christians.

Homosexuality is another issue that has been around since the beginning of time. All throughout history there has been homosexual activity. It probably started out as being a asertation of social stature. This is guess as of the mind set, seeing as how I am not gay, I have no idea as to what makes one man want to have sex with another. I think it's best to forget this part and move on, as long as we realize that even in the church there is MAJOR homosexual activity, involving the Priests. If they feared hell as the Bible states it, you'd think that would be enough to deter them, again just guessing here.

Not necessarily. The 'church' is full of hypocrites, including you and me, some days. No one is sinless or flawless - which is why we needed a savior - but some continue to sin against God, year after year, while still claiming to be his 'servants'. They are lying to both men and God at that point. Look what Jesus says about it (in the book you doubt):

Not every one who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven. On that day many will say to Me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and do many mighty works in Your Name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you evildoers.' - Matthew 7:21-23 RSV

The point in that scripture is that simply acting 'religious' and saying the 'right' words or doing the 'correct' rituals means nothing to God, who see's what's in our hearts and judges us by that, not our superficial acts or our pious words. Those who claim to 'represent' God and sin against His commands, such as pedophile priests, have much to answer for on Judgement Day. I would not wish to be them on that 'Great and Mournful Day' as the old hymn calls it.

I don't know the answer, nor do I claim to know. I just like to ask questions and be asked questions. I like to learn as much as I can. If I end up teaching someone something, it is merely by accident, and not intended. Probably as much as you don't intend on teaching.

I'm not a teacher and I certainly don't 'know' all the answers either - but God does. Many of them are right in scripture, where I go for the answers I need. I trust Him with my mortal and more importantly, my eternal life, as He has promised to love and care for me and make a place for me with Him, in heaven, as his 'adopted' son, as He will for all those who follow His Word and accept Christ as Savior. I know that because it says so in God's Word: the bible. If you choose to reject it as little more than an interesting book, then you have nothing but 'feelings' and some vague emotional tie to a God and a Savior that you cannot see. Christian believers have more than emotions, they have faith, not a 'guess'. We trust our lives to the Lord and do not believe His Word is a pack of lies someone called the 'Word of God' to sell books or gain some power over people. I regret that for some reason you reject or want to question scripture as the inspired Word of God and compare your 'faith' to a 'guess' and so, really have little to stand on when it's attacked, as it will be, in one way or another, I can assure you. That kind of faith is going to fade fast one of these days. I've seen it happen. You have no basis for what you claim you believe if you reject and question the bible. You are depending on other's teachings and your emotions and intellect, all of which will fail you in some measure, at times. God will not fail you - but you have to trust His Word for what it is. authentic and real. If you cannot bring yourself to do that then you have little to base your 'belief' on but yourself. A poor vehicle in which to carry your soul into eternity.

This is why I try to avoid debates, in person or on the web, with atheists. They reject the bible as a lie and claim Jesus is/was a fraud. We have nothing to say to each other at that point. I receive what I know about God and Christ from scripture: His Word. If you reject it, then we are just going to debate small points and as I cannot produce God on demand and the atheist cannot prove He doesn't exist, we just frustrate each other and nothing is gained by the debate.

I wish you well in your search for truth and I trust that you'll come back to the bible one day and realize it is what it has always been: the inerrant Word of God.