[Mr 5 0]

Originally posted by Mach 1 :

I tend to disagree that Americans are trashing thier own country because they think its "patriotic" and "sophisticated". That certainly doesnt apply to me. Have you ever opened your mind to the possiblility that people have other reasons for thier disent with this country?

I've 'opened my mind', as you disingenuously put it, on an almost daily basis for many years, debating politics and public policy with liberals on the internet. I'm well aware of the numerous 'dissents' liberals hold and I've refuted and discussed them literally hundreds of times. I can attest to the fact that most of their complaints are either about nebulous 'problems' or else they hate the president and are rabidly anti-war, which is not quite the same as being anti-American.

Unfortunately, I encounter many people who seem to either be indoctrinated with leftist dogmas that are based on the perceived 'evils' of America ('rampant consumerism' is just one of many) or claim to be disgusted with their own country - according to them - yet somehow always control their disgust well enough to enjoy every benefit America can provide, as I never fail to remind them. When challenged on their assertations and conclusions they often are defensive and claim that it's actually 'patriotic' to trash America and they 'just want to make it a better nation' and are 'not afraid to see it's faults'. They do seem far less able to see it's attributes and apparenty are loath to mention them, if they do.

The liberal's (who trash America) stated desire to 'improve' America is fraught with ambiguous meanings and I'm sure every despot and oppressive government in the world made a similar claim at one time. I am instinctively wary of those who, (a) can't seem to find much good to say about their own country and, (b) always seem to want to 'fix it' with some socialist, utopian set of schemes that must have sounded great in a politics bull session back in college but that is usually just a re-hash of failed socialist concepts that ignore the humanity and the normal yearnings of the very people such schemes purport to benefit.

Not everybody who diagrees with what happens in politics is "ungrateful and willfully blind to reality and the world around them".

Not every liberal who thinks 'big business' should be strangled by oppressive taxes, that the wealth of the nation should be 'distributed' by government or that 'government' should control every facet of our lives is a communist or even a socialist - but many are, at heart and don't even know it. They want to replace freedom with dependence and substitute opportunity for lowered expectations and mandated outcomes. That's just wrong.

As I stipulated: as a people, we can and will always disagree on specifics and certain politicians or policies but I find that most anti-American types (not counting Canadians or The French who are hardwired to hate America) see mostly 'problems' instead of opportunities in America and that seriously think calling the president names and being vocally anti-war is somehow a sophisticated political posture and claiming to want to make America 'better' by making it more socialistic is 'patriotic'.

I think even you have gone to far this time.

Think what you like. It should be obvious that I disagree. I find that when I begin to come close to the truth some people get defensive. Maybe that's just me. In any case, it's simply my personal observations and opinions but I would be happy to discuss them with you here if you ever wish to do so.