[RBatson]

Unfortunately its been a tough week for me and I somehow allowed myself to fall asleep in the middle of replying to your well thought out post. I see you got alittle personal. A little body check never hurts.

Originally Posted by Mr 5 0

Capitalism is the engine that has made America the world power it is and has been since WWII. It allows anyone to start a small business and with hard work and some luck, be financially successful.

Actually, that's what I love about capitalism. I've been thinking of starting my own business for years and recently have gotten to the point, finacially, where I may be comfortable doing so.

Originally Posted by Mr 5 0

Almost every big corporation in America - from Ford to Microsoft - were started by an entrepreneur with just an idea and lots of ambition. Those entrepreneurs - from the guy who owns the local auto repair shop down the road to the millionaire factory owner - hire and pay other people looking for work and thus, make the economy grow, as ours has, in stark comparison with europe and other western nations that have foolishly embraced socialism. These entrepreneurs often start by borrowing money from banks to start their business. Money that they pay back with interest, just as people have always done. Even the bible mentions bankers..and they are not condemned.

We aren't talking about entrepreneurs, but I think you know that.

Originally Posted by Mr 5 0

Meanwhile, wage-earners choose to work for their wages and I don't think that $60,000. per-year auto workers are all that deprived.

Who said they were. Hell, Toyota is paying Americans close to that in their American plants. Who said that the auto workers were deprived? Why the shot at auto workers, you don't like auto workers?

Originally Posted by Mr 5 0

To mindlessly state, as you did, that 'capitalism could be the downfall of America' is beyond ridiculous and speaks to a profound lack of understanding of economics on your part.

Oh really?? Mindless you say. When America is run by a foreign power I'll try to remember that.. hopefully it won't be in our life time. With the outsourcing of our jobs, to foreign countries, I find less money remaining here. We have jobless Americans yet companies are shipping in workers from India. Bush is trying to reform foreign policy to give MILLIONS of ILLEGAL immigrants US citizenship. That's right, ship them in and sell them land. 3yr work permits for everyone. And no, I didn't like Clinton's Nafta ordeal either.

Originally Posted by Mr 5 0

Grumbling about executive salaries is nothing new but it has little bearing on the financial woes of domestic automakers. While the six and seven-figure salaries of top auto execs may look bloated to the average person (you and me) , they simply mirror what other high-level execs get in other industries.

Not in other countries though. American execs make alot more than than their foreign counterparts. Maybe that is why Japan is doing so well, more emphasis on the quality than the profit. On a side note, alot of other industy leaders compensate themselves alot better than the auto industry. Some of the theifs reward themselves while thier company is going under and I'm not talking about illegal activity such as Enron. I'm talking about companies that don't have enough capital to operate for another 6 months yet the execs get outrageous bonuses and stock options.

Originally Posted by Mr 5 0

Maybe GM is catching on.

I really like GM at this point. I like the F250 better but will probably buy GM for the service.

Originally Posted by Mr 5 0

Would you include the 'excessive pay' of unionized factory workers, too? 'Excessive pay' is a relative term and can be used against anyone who you happen to think makes more money than you personally think they should make.

Again, what do you have against the auto worker? I've never done the job so I have absolutely no idea what its worth. I have done my job for 18 yrs and its not a job most people would stick with.. I make good money(relatively) but I work for it. I don't think you could judge it from your lazyboy. I'd like for the average person to start out at 9am, run all day, and return at 1am and show up the next day. Those steaks smell good on the grill at 5:30 while many of us have many hours of work left..

Originally Posted by Mr 50

In any case, if GM and/or Ford do go under (unlikely) all those highly paid executives will be out of a job, right along with everyone else in the company. Now there is equality of outcome for you, something liberals seem to love

Well if you feel that strongly then maybe you should buy some of their stock, its relatively cheap at the moment. Ford is valued at only $15 Billion though it does have umm.. over $154 Billion in debt with less than $21 Billion in cash. They are showing net assets of $7 Billion but that counts all real estate and investments they hold. Hmm.. their market cap was between $50-60 Billion not 5 years ago. A turn around would present a huge return on your money. I don't see it in Ford's future though, maybe GM's. GM is doing something about it, just today they laid off a good number of execs. Not only that but their customer service is head and shoulders over Ford. I think GM is the safer bet and Ford is going to pull a USAir(Chapter 13). Hopefully they won't go into chapter 11, I'd hate to see Ford disappear.

Originally Posted by Mr 50

Ethanol, last I checked, had a net negative energy balance. It actually takes more fuel to create the ethanol than you get out in ethanol. With the government 'help' you seem to admire, it sounds like another welfare progarm for farmers, financed by the already over-burdened taxpayer. No thanks.

Yeah? Well you need to check again. Brazil is practically run off of ethanol. Hmm.. what you got against farmers? Welfare program? I guess you'd rather pay them to NOT grow crops, like we currently do.

Originally Posted by Mr 50

Geez, I feel like I just stumbled into a looney leftwing website or something. Bush/Cheney and the Saudi monarchy are part of some conspiracy to 'force' Americans to consume oil they 'don't need'? That is simply anti-Bush paranoia manifesting itself and is not connected to any kind of rationality. Where do you get this kind of rubbish?

Really Jim? Everytime I read one of your post, on this subject, I feel like I'm talking to a mushroom thats buried under a pile of crap. Wash it off brother and open your eyes. They both were in the oil industry and if you think they aren't making something off the price of fuel then your nuts. I call it Bush's retirement plan, I hope he gets impeached(he should be for lying to the US public). Even the Bush supporters at work say that the price of fuel(at the pump) doesn't reflect the price of oil.

Originally Posted by Mr 50

Here's a clue: it's not just cars but homes, business and many kinds of machinery that are designed to run on oil or oil byproducts, as they have for over 100 years. They cannot be 'converted' overnight and the conversion costs would be huge, so no one is jumping into it without real proof that the so-called 'alternative fuels' are actually feasible in the long term. Solar? Wind power? How very PC....and how equally devoid of reality.

WOW! "Devoid of reality"! Really?! Well, I don't know if you read the thread I started about me riding my Harley to Sturgis, it took me 3 days, Jim... 2033 miles. It was quite a ride but I had to stop and take a few pictures on the way. One of the stops I just had to make was in Minnesota. That's right next to South Dakota, Jim. Funny thing is that it gets terribly hot there(100 degrees), during the day in August but at night it gets cold(50s). Anyhow, I saw this and just had to take pictures and I thought of our conversation years ago. See the attachments.

Originally Posted by Mr 50

Your anti-capitalism, anti-business and trite anti-Bush hysteria demonstrates the Marxist, anti-capitalist mindset that apparently drives 'liberals' these days and it is not pretty to watch, as your uninformed rantings here prove. Grow up and get real.

I'm not anti-capitalism, defendly not anti-business but you are right.. The moment I saw GWB's first interview I knew he wasn't presidential material. I just don't like people taking advantage of their position.. "capitalizing on it". The system just needs to be tweeked. The price of an asprin in the hospital should reflect the price of an asprin in the local drug store. That's not what capitalism is about.. that's theivery.