[Mr 5 0]

Originally Posted by RBatson

Unfortunately its been a tough week for me and I somehow allowed myself to fall asleep in the middle of replying to your well thought out post. I see you got alittle personal. A little body check never hurts.

Well, Rick, I think you made some really boneheaded cooments about capitalism that required a strong response.

Actually, that's what I love about capitalism. I've been thinking of starting my own business for years and recently have gotten to the point, finacially, where I may be comfortable doing so.

Good. Yet, you casually label 'capitalism' as the possible 'downfall of America'. Can you even see the inherent dichotomy in that statement?

We aren't talking about entrepreneurs, but I think you know that.

Yes, we are. You obviously hold much resentment toward 'big business' but Rick, 'big business' is simply capitalism on a billion-dollar scale.

Who said they were. Hell, Toyota is paying Americans close to that in their American plants. Who said that the auto workers were deprived? Why the shot at auto workers, you don't like auto workers?

I guess those strikes they seem to have every few years is a demonstration of how happy the auto workers are.

Oh really?? Mindless you say. When America is run by a foreign power I'll try to remember that.. hopefully it won't be in our life time.

Pure hyperbole, Rick. Get real. Capitalism is hardly going to be the 'downfall of America', as you stated 'could' happen. Isolationist trade policies may look good but they do not work in the long run.

With the outsourcing of our jobs, to foreign countries, I find less money remaining here. We have jobless Americans yet companies are shipping in workers from India. Bush is trying to reform foreign policy to give MILLIONS of ILLEGAL immigrants US citizenship. That's right, ship them in and sell them land. 3yr work permits for everyone. And no, I didn't like Clinton's Nafta ordeal either

'Outsourcing' amounts to about 2% of the U.S. workforce and is only possible because of computer technology. The jobs outsourced are not high-wage jobs, either. I agree that the Bush plan to legalize millions of illegal immigrants is foolish and I oppose it, as do most conservatives, by the way.

Not in other countries though. American execs make alot more than than their foreign counterparts. Maybe that is why Japan is doing so well, more emphasis on the quality than the profit. On a side note, alot of other industy leaders compensate themselves alot better than the auto industry. Some of the theifs reward themselves while thier company is going under and I'm not talking about illegal activity such as Enron. I'm talking about companies that don't have enough capital to operate for another 6 months yet the execs get outrageous bonuses and stock options.

It's true that Japanese auto companies limit executive compensation but they operate in an entirely diffent social culture that is probably more moral than ours, at this point in time. We are not the same country we were 50 years ago, just richer and with better technology.

Yes, there are bad guys in the executive suites of American businesses but they are a minority. There are about 5 million corporations in the U.S., 16,000 of them with more than 500 employees and of course there will be the occasional corporate thief and dishonest executive - but they are a distinct minority. U.S. business, as a whole, could not survive if the majority of it's executives were all dishonest and making crap products.

I really like GM at this point. I like the F250 better but will probably buy GM for the service.

Your call.

Again, what do you have against the auto worker? I've never done the job so I have absolutely no idea what its worth. I have done my job for 18 yrs and its not a job most people would stick with.. I make good money(relatively) but I work for it. I don't think you could judge it from your lazyboy. I'd like for the average person to start out at 9am, run all day, and return at 1am and show up the next day. Those steaks smell good on the grill at 5:30 while many of us have many hours of work left.

Rick, once again, you are reading things into my comments that are not really there. Your penchant to want to engage in class warfare is a disappointment. In the case of the possible demise of some U.S. auto manufacturers, It isn't blue-collar versus white-collar, as you want to see the situation. I simply feel that when a major auto manufacture is failing, there is a lot of blame to go around. Some simply want to blame the 'suits', while some blame only the factory workers. I blame both - but as I have said...repeatedly...I don't believe that either executive pay or worker pay (and benefits) are the sole or even the major cause for Ford and GM's decline, just a factor.

Well if you feel that strongly then maybe you should buy some of their stock, its relatively cheap at the moment. Ford is valued at only $15 Billion though it does have umm.. over $154 Billion in debt with less than $21 Billion in cash. They are showing net assets of $7 Billion but that counts all real estate and investments they hold. Hmm.. their market cap was between $50-60 Billion not 5 years ago. A turn around would present a huge return on your money. I don't see it in Ford's future though, maybe GM's. GM is doing something about it, just today they laid off a good number of execs. Not only that but their customer service is head and shoulders over Ford. I think GM is the safer bet and Ford is going to pull a USAir(Chapter 13). Hopefully they won't go into chapter 11, I'd hate to see Ford disappear.

So would I - and thanks for economic update (I read the WSJ, too).

Yeah? Well you need to check again. Brazil is practically run off of ethanol. Hmm.. what you got against farmers? Welfare program? I guess you'd rather pay them to NOT grow crops, like we currently do.

Many U.S. farmers have been on the farm 'subsidy' dole for years - as you noted - and the ethanol scheme is just another political sop in the same vein meant to get the votes of 'big agriculture', who donate plenty to politicians - in both parties. Most farming today is done by big conglomerates. The 'family farm' is a quaint relic and the big farm operations of today do not need to be 'bailed out' with dubious fuel additive schemes, paid for by overburdened taxpayers.

Really Jim? Everytime I read one of your post, on this subject, I feel like I'm talking to a mushroom thats buried under a pile of crap. Wash it off brother and open your eyes. They both were in the oil industry and if you think they aren't making something off the price of fuel then your nuts. I call it Bush's retirement plan, I hope he gets impeached(he should be for lying to the US public). Even the Bush supporters at work say that the price of fuel(at the pump) doesn't reflect the price of oil.

Rick, that kind of rhetoric is simply far-left hysteria and not rational. Bush and Cheney were multi-millionaires long before they were elected to office in 2000. President Bush was born wealthy and is worth 26 million, today. His assets, like Cheney's, are in a blind trust that they have no access to while in office. The fact that they happened to be in the oil business at one time (but have been out of for years) doesn't automatically make them part of some sinister plot, as you foolishly claim. That is just loony, far-left hyperbole, again. There is simply not a scintilla of evidence for that reckless charge and you would do well to consider being able to actually come close to proving it, before so casually making it. You just look foolish.

President Bush certainly did not lie to the American people and at least 3 high-level, non-partisan investigations - including the '9/11 Commission' report made that crystal clear, in no uncertain terms. I guess you missed all that. Sorry, but you and the rest of the lefties that try to sell that canard by saying 'Bush lied' over and over will not make it magically be true. Your ridiculous contention that the Bush administration is part of some evil conspiracy to bilk the public in order to enrich themselves smacks of pure delusional paranoia on your part. How sad you choose to live with that kind of absurd fallacy as your rationale for resenting the twice-elected President of the United States. Get real.

WOW! "Devoid of reality"! Really?! Well, I don't know if you read the thread I started about me riding my Harley to Sturgis, it took me 3 days, Jim... 2033 miles. It was quite a ride but I had to stop and take a few pictures on the way. One of the stops I just had to make was in Minnesota. That's right next to South Dakota, Jim. Funny thing is that it gets terribly hot there(100 degrees), during the day in August but at night it gets cold(50s). Anyhow, I saw this and just had to take pictures and I thought of our conversation years ago. See the attachments.

A rather sharp diversion from the point, but thanks for the photos.

I'm not anti-capitalism, defendly not anti-business

Gee, you could have fooled me with the 'Capitalism could be the downfall of America' line. Were you just kidding?

but you are right.. The moment I saw GWB's first interview I knew he wasn't presidential material.

That's your opinion and you are welcome to it, for whatever good it does you. I and many other Americans disagree, including the 62 million Americans who voted for President Bush (over that intellectual giant, John F. Kerry) in 2004.

I just don't like people taking advantage of their position.. "capitalizing on it".

President Bush has not done so, even if you want to pretend that he has. Prove it and we'll talk, otherwise, you are simply smearing a good man for no real reason and with absolutely no evidence for what you claim.

The system just needs to be tweeked. The price of an asprin in the hospital should reflect the price of an asprin in the local drug store. That's not what capitalism is about.. that's theivery.

Overcharging is all-too common in hospitals because they lose a bundle on uninsured patients every year and in most places, they have to treat anyone who comes in. It stinks but that's the reality. Would you rather have hospitals turn people away who couldn't pay...or would you rather pay $3. for that asprin? There you have it.