Sintered iron race clutch discussion (was: Pro Spyder intake?)

[Slimjim]

Anyone seen these, seems alot of mustangs are running them that also run FI. Anyone know where they can be ordered from?

[Eric4Nitrous]

Coast High sells them.

[Slimjim]

Do you have a url of their website handy?

[Eric4Nitrous]

not off hand. look in 5.0 and super fords. they have an ad.

[StangFlyer]

I run an EFI Spyder intake on my 377 stroker. This intake is a single plane Victor Jr. carburator manifold that has been modified by having fuel injector bosses welded into it. Then they add a custom fabricated 90 degree upper connector to the throttle body. However, whether you would want to run this intake or not would heavily depend on your application, the power band you need or are looking for, and other factors. If you don't have a more serious combination, where you are going to run higher RPM's, you may not want this intake. It will have far less low end torque, and will have a high RPM band. The power in my car doesn't really come in until over 3500 RPM and this intake will reach it's full potential until much higher (7000 to 8000 RPM). If you stick this thing on a intermediate 5.0 combination meant for the street (2500 to 6000 RPM band) it will probably kill it because you will probably have poor low end torque. The same thing happens trying to use something like a Saleen Intake (truck lower) on a 5.0L street combo.

However, if you have a serious engine that makes a ton of power, killing the low end some can be beneficial though. At the track it makes it easier to hook up and on the street there's still enough low end to make it crazy any ways.

Hope this helps...

[DAN-MAN]

The url for the Spyder intake is http://www.promustang.com/single_pages/injection.htm

Daniel

[WADS56]

They are killer intakes. To sum it up in one sentence though, just use them for the big cube high rpm motors.

Wade

[ultraflo]

Originally posted by Dan McClain
I run an EFI Spyder intake on my 377 stroker.

What kinda rpm's you twist that 377 to Dan? ...out of curiosity. I just happen to have you down on my TOP 50 list... have you run any better than 10.90 recently?

[StangFlyer]

Well, really my engine would be a serious 3500 to 7500+ RPM combo - however, I only twist it to 6500 RPM. The reason is that I set up my combination with hydraulic rollers, which I did on purpose because I wanted a maintenance free set up and because I do not want to ever break anything. I screwed around working on my 302 combination for years wrenching on it all the time pushing it to it's limits. Therefore, I wanted to build a mill that would give me the big power I wanted without breaking, blowing head gaskets, etc... By setting my engine up like I did I've never had any of the shortcomings of the 302 with this kind of power.

So, I do not get the full potential out of my combination like I could with a solid roller set-up, but so what. It's reliable, it doesn't ever break, and it is still capable of running mid-10's with just 10 lbs of boost and assuredly 9's with 15-18 lbs of boost. Exactly what I wanted. It makes enough power any ways for a 90% street driven car.

But, to answer your question, no - I haven't done better than a 10.9 because of my clutch. The original clutch I used after building the combination was a 10.5" RAM long style. Same thing as the diaphragm HP900, but in a long style configuration. Rated for about 500 HP. It was fine on the street with street tires, but as soon as I put it on the track on slicks it started slipping from the first pass. With my clutch slipping and turning horrible 60 ft's (only like 1.7's and 1.8's) I still went 10.9 @ 126+ MPH. After nine passes the clutch went bye-bye.

After that I went to a sintered iron 11" pro stock clutch, which I had clearance issues with and it would not fully engage (the fork hits the back of the bell housing). I have the parts to correct this problem, but in TWO YEARS now haven't done it. I've just been too busy in life unfortunately for one and the other is just not wanting to mess with it. The later because the engine is shoe horned into the car with its monster 2" primary headers and I literally have to pull the motor to get the headers out of the way and the bell housing off. However, this winter I will be doing it and planned to be ready to rock for spring. Once spring comes I have to get with Lidio (Alternative Auto, he tunes it) and retune the car again, do a couple odds and ends myself with it, and then hit the track.

My set-up's:

STREET
92-94 octane
10 lbs of boost
Already gone 10.9 with a slipping clutch on this tune
But, I fully expect it will go 10.5 to 10.6 with the new
clutch working properly.

RACE
C16 Race Fuel
18 lbs of boost
It's definitely going 9's! (if I can hook that is)

[ultraflo]

Hey Dan, if you're using hyd. roller lifters, there's a guy by the name of Jay Allen Sherman who can modify them to work well past 7000 while still maintaining the reliability of a stock lifter while performing like a solid. Alot of the NHRA stocker guys use them... I have contact info if you're interested. I spin mine 7000-7200 without a worry, and no between round adjustments.

I use a McLeod Soft Lok setup (long style, 10.5" press. plate w/ a sintered iron disc on an 11" alum. flywheel) that uses a modified clutch fork for the reasons you described. I had some issues getting the free play between the t/o bearing and clutch fingers setup properly to allow full engagement, but once that was straightened out I soon grew very fond of the unit's adjustability in pressure. You can easily take out/add some bite to the clutch for different track conditions... and different tires, so I found out (see video, lol.)

Speaking of hook... I found that 28x10.5 ET Drags offer all the hook you can throw at them if you're worried about traction, lol.

With Lidio tuning your ride, I imagine 9's should come real easy this spring once you work out the bugs. Sounds like fun to me!

Later,
-Ryan

[StangFlyer]

Yeah, I've heard about doing that in the past, but it's not something I'm worried about. Right now I have to get my clutch straightened out for one thing, and then I don't know if I'd still want to do it. As stated, the 6500 RPM shift point is a good thing for the mill to live a long happy life. That's more important to me these days than getting another .3 tenths out of it. But, we'll see how I feel when it's all sorted out and I've finally been able to run the car for a while in full form.

On the tires, I have 26 x 10" ET Drags. I can't really go any larger because of wheel well clearance. I had to curve the lips and bend in the inner lining by the quad shocks as it is for those. Remember, the car is lowered 1.5" and I'm keeping it a real street car. I will do nothing where I must screw it up to make tires fit and I am not interested in raising the car back up to stock height. Actually, what I'm interested in doing any ways is changing to Drag Radials and tuning the clutch (that's the beauty of our type of clutch) to make it hook with that. Then I can run it in a drag radial class if I wanted to hit an event or two.

[ultraflo]

Originally posted by Dan McClain
As stated, the 6500 RPM shift point is a good thing for the mill to live a long happy life. That's more important to me these days than getting another .3 tenths out of it. But, we'll see how I feel when it's all sorted out and I've finally been able to run the car for a while in full form.

LOL! I hear ya... understandable, completely. I have a feeling you may eventually want to spin it a little harder once you find the tune and starting running consistently. May be just me though. I like winding 'em hard...

Good Luck Dan, I hope to see at one of the tracks here in Illinois next year.

Later,
-R

[StangFlyer]

Yeah, love to be there and meet up with you. Btw: Here's my headache...

[ultraflo]

Yeah, I have to take all my header tubes/collectors off when I remove the bellhousing. Not exactly alot of fun... But it's a necessary evil.

Do you have allen head adjusters in the pressure plate like the McLeod unit? I had to drill a hole in the bellhousing to access the pressure plate with an allen wrench for adjustments (and index my balancer with said adjusters to facilitate locating them with the bellhousing and headers in place). The pic looks similar to what I run, only I don't have monster 2" primaries (stepped 1 5/8" - 1 3/4" Bassani's - which makes things just a bit easier to manuver around). You'll get it... hell, if I can figure it out you shouldn't have a problem setting it up with some more seat time.

[StangFlyer]

Yeah, I still have to drill the hole in my bellhousing and mark my balancer myself. What you described is exactly what you have to do. I also have to install the custom fork, shorter throwout bearing, and firewall stabilizer on the cable. Fun Fun. Wouldn't be so bad except for those #$#^%$ headers! Any ways, here's my Ram pressure plate. As you can see it has provisions for counter weights. I use 9 gram bolt/nuts. This plate is 850 lbs base pressure, adjustable up to 1250 lbs. The counter weights probably add like another 1500 lbs at high RPM. It's the big daddy.



Where did you locate your hole in the bellhousing at? There's not much open space with the trans in place to put it.

[Shaggy]

Jumping in hear late My $.02 I had a 351 wiht 11" clutch and hays bellhousing back in late 80's i went through hell getting all to work right sounds like some of the issues are the same to this day.Good luck Dan. and the way my headers fit to change the starter i either had to pull the header or the tranny/bell/clutch and guess which was easier...pulling the tranny was.I feel your pain Dan.

As far as the "high rev" kits for Hyd lifters they work great but i did it to the above 351 and was spinning it to 7200 the big drawback was with the big mains in the Windsor my bearings did even last one full season when i rebuilt it i started shifting lower 6500 and the motor then lasted me 2 years before i sold it all to go back to old fords and street cars mainly for the same reasons Dan has stated above lots less headaches just put the key in and go.

[ultraflo]

Hey Dan, I had to drill the hole for the adjusters on the passenger side of the bellhousing... see the attachment. It's down and to the right of the clutch fork pivot stud. I need to drill it out to 1/2" to make it easier to put the allen wrench into the adjuster.... I set everything up with the motor out of the car, as it's easier to index the balancer this way...

[ultraflo]

As far as the balancer goes... I used some pinstriping masking tape that was laying around out in the garage. Haven't come up with anything better yet and the tape seems to hold up pretty well thus far. I'm going to put a new piece on before next season though.

With the motor out of the car, bellhousing installed, I turned the motor over by hand until reaching an adjuster. At that point I would insert the allen wrench making sure it was centered in the hole I drilled and would then make a mark on the damper at the timing pointer.

[StangFlyer]

shaggy - I hear you. I just want it to live a long happy life and not have to *&$# with it. I don't have time for that these days or the drive to do it any more. I just want to enjoy my car at this point in life, not wrench on it all the time. I guess that's just the difference between my 20's and now my 30's. (i.e. I'm getting to be an old *$&#)

The problem you experience with your mains would be typical of the wide rod journal on the 351W. There are ways to prevent that though. For example, some people use an ultra high pressure oil pump or some people use a crank with a cleveland crank journal dimension (not as wide). Or, well, like you said you can just keep the RPM's down!

Ultraflo - Thanks for posting your pictures. That's exactly what I understood I would do, but now I see it before hand. I agree you need a bigger hole there (no jokes here anyone!! ), I am sure that will make it a bit easier getting the allen and extension in there.

Here's a question for you though... What pressure plate configuration are you running? What is your base pressure adjustment range, and what have you adjusted it to (normally speaking)? I actually have two pressure plates. One does not have the counter weight provisions, and has a base pressure range of like ~400 lbs to ~750 lbs. The other is the one I described earlier, which is big dog of the three Ram has that goes from ~850 lbs to ~1250 lbs and also has the counterweight set-up on the fingers.

[ultraflo]

What pressure plate configuration are you running? What is your base pressure adjustment range, and what have you adjusted it to (normally speaking)?

I use a McLeod Soft Lok pressure plate with a base or minimum pressure of 200lbs. and a max pressure setting of 1890lbs. @ 13 turns from the base setting. One full revolution of all 6 adjusters makes for an increase of 130lbs.

I started out with 8 turns (1240lbs.) as dictated to me by Red @ McLeod after explaining my setup to him. After making 2 passes, you work the pressure down until high gear slippage occurs. At this point, either add light counterweight or increase spring pressure to regain high gear lock up. I encountered slippage at 6 turns (980lbs.), and returned back to 7 (1110lbs.) for solid lock-up... and that's in a nutshell, since I encountered some issues with improper clutch fork adjustment which became apparent after some excessive slippage (which removed some of the facing off the disc allowing the fingers to raise up from the flywheel just enough for the t/o bearing to ride them). I had the p/p set at 9 (1370lbs.) at one point and still had slippage, removing more facing off the disc yet. Then, upon closer inspection, I realized I needed to re-adjust the pivot stud for the fork (back it off some)... ended up with 7 turns once that was straightened out. The disc started life with a .280 thickness, and, I can check it again if you like, is like .260-.270. So I was real close to having slippage to begin with... I developed a learning curve as I went, lol. Still have yet to master it, but I'm alot more comfortable with it at this point and will continue to grow into it....

I have yet to mess with counterweights, and will try to stay away from them until they become absolutely necessary. The new combo will dictate where I go with the setup from the current settings.