Engine builders please help

wrathchild · 10-12-2001, 11:30 PM

PLease read over this and reply. I am pulling my hair out. I put together a motor. New everything. Block bored, 10:1 pistons alot of good stuff. Got it all together in the car got it started and running. At start up it sounded great but, as it warmed up i got some really bad and sometime weird rocker noise. The weird noise kinda sounded like a squeak or something along that line and only between 2200 and 1200 rpms. So this was about 2 weeks ago and since then i have adjusted the rockers about 20 times. I recently pulled the lower intake to check the lifters and when i did i found the lifters that i had received were about 1/8"taller than stock. Now i am running twisted wedge heads and trick flow says a 6.75 pushrod with .15 tolerance either way. So I was running 6.8 pushrods and with the taller lifter i was over the limit. Was like i was running a 6.925 pushrod. So i compensated with a shorter(6.65) pushrod. This would be like me running a 6.775 pushrod with the taller lifter. Well within the limits trick flow gives. Got it all back together today and took it out for a drive. The same thing happened at startup it ran nice and quiet but as it got up to operating temp it started making the same noises. So i came home adjusted the rockers and took it back out. The same noise. O ya i also went from 10-30 to 20-50 thinking that with a thicker oil it would quiet it up. It didnt. So whats my problem here? I think i have a lifter that is collapsing when the motor gets warm and as the oil thins out. Please guys help me out here. I am about ready to put a 8lb sledge into every body panel on my car.

306, 10:1 CR, twisted wedge heads, track heat intake, stage 1 cam, 1.6 trick flow rockers, 30 lb injectors, 70 mm TB, 76 mm MAS, 255 lph fuel pump,1 5/8 shorties, x pipe, flowmasters, 3.55's,

[This message has been edited by wrathchild (edited 10-13-2001).]

PKRWUD · 10-13-2001, 02:43 AM

You need to verify the noise and where it's coming from. A collapsed lifter would make a clattering sound, not a squeaking sound.

-C

------------------
Retired Moderator
MustangNet

My site: JimPorterRacing

RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR

HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

Rick 91GT · 10-13-2001, 11:17 AM

One thing you might want to check is the bushing in the distributor, not sure why it is only in the low rpms but it worth checking. I have seen these squeak/squeal when it goes bad. You really need to try to pin point the noise this will help.

Good Luck,

Rick

------------------
Check Out My Site 91GT,Holley SysteMAX II Kit-Heads 2.02" x 1.60" port matched to a 1262,Anderson N-61,24#,76mm C&L,Full MAC, No A/C or PS or emissions, 12" K&N Filter,RNH PERFORMANCE Ram Air,Ron Davis Radiator,Full Suspension, SPEC stage III clutch, Lakewood SFI bell, S&W 8pt "X" brace,JAZ seats,3:73's,Welds..etc,4:30's and 31 splines coming very soon!
[b]12.16 @ 113.5, 1.78 60ft..no traction in the 90 degree

wrathchild · 10-13-2001, 06:07 PM

Would this bushing only make noise when warm?
It definately sounds like it is coming from the front of the lifter valley. I had got it down to the number 5 cylinder. Somewhere right in that area. It is definately not coming from under the valve cover. WE used a stethiscope and no noise under the valve cover.

Rick 91GT · 10-14-2001, 11:31 AM

Well the only way I know how to check is to squirt a little WD40 underneath the electronics in the distributor and start the motor to see if it goes away. I have no idea why it only does it when it gets warm unless the heat is expanding something...when my buddies went bad it made it all the time, he had checked everything and was about to tear the motor apart when I suggested looking at the distributor which is over looked becasue everyone forgets about that bushing, and that is what it was.

Chris what do you think? Is this a good possiblity? I'm not ASE certified but what is iATN, I have always read that in your sig and have wondered. Nice pic on the site, the motor that gernaded was nice.

------------------
Check Out My Site 91GT,Holley SysteMAX II Kit-Heads 2.02" x 1.60" port matched to a 1262,Anderson N-61,24#,76mm C&L,Full MAC, No A/C or PS or emissions, 12" K&N Filter,RNH PERFORMANCE Ram Air,Ron Davis Radiator,Full Suspension, SPEC stage III clutch, Lakewood SFI bell, S&W 8pt "X" brace,JAZ seats,3:73's,Welds..etc,4:30's and 31 splines coming very soon!
<B>12.16 @ 113.5, 1.78 60ft..no traction in the 90 degree

[This message has been edited by Rick 91GT (edited 10-14-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Rick 91GT (edited 10-14-2001).]

PKRWUD · 10-14-2001, 12:28 PM

Rick-
Sure. Actually, now that I think about it, I had a buddy of mine with a carbed 302 that was making a similar whining noise. While the engine was running, we were observing it to see if we could figure it out. While watching, the distributor suddenly jerked so hard it ripped the wires off the cap (some of them, anyway). The oil grooves in the distributor shaft had clogged from heat and lack of regular oil changes. It seized. I ended up rebuilding it, but I I still had never seen that actually happen before. Might want to pull the distributor and inspect it.

As far as iATN, this is the reply I wrote to the last person that asked. It's pretty killer!

iATN is "the largest network of automotive technicians in the world. The International Automotive Technicians' Network is a group of 36,821 professional automotive technicians from 120 countries. The automotive professionals of this group exchange technical knowledge and information with other members from around the globe, sharing 734,387 years of experience!" By becoming a member, you'll join the thousands of other automotive professionals who make up the iATN. Being a part of this global network means you are serious about helping to further the automotive industry and helping yourself gain knowledge and experience.

Interested in joining?
Are you a full-time professional automotive technician interested in networking with other professionals from around the world?

Do you have at least 4 years of full time work experience as an automotive technician, or are you currently ASE certified?

If you answered yes to these questions, please consider becoming part of the largest network of professional automotive technicians in the world. We offer an incredible resource for automotive professionals, as detailed in the iATN membership overview.
Professional technicians can join iATN here.

Okay, that's in their words. In mine, it's killer. They have an email program in which members can send out a "help" email describing a problem they're having, and it will be sent to all of the members who have that make of vehicle and type of problem selected in their email preferences. Usually, you will receive a dozen or more replies within an hour or two with solutions to your problem. These aren't guesses, they are solutions from other pros who have experienced what you're going through, and know the answer. You will receive emails from other techs having trouble (I receive close to 70 a day), and if you can help, send them an email. If not, delete it. After a tech fixes the problem, they post a "fix" email describing what the solution was. This is great for learning about new problems in new and old vehicles. I have posted a help email 3 or 4 times in the 3 years I have been a member, and received excellent help, quickly, every time.

There are also several message boards as well as factory supplied vehicle and tool info from sponsors like GM, Ford, Snap-on, Fluke, and dozens of others.

This is 100% free. You do have the option to become a sponsoring member for $10 a month, which adds features like access to the entire email "fix" post database, where you can punch in the vehicle and type of problem, and see all of the fix posts ever made for it (usually hundreds), but you don't have to. I tried it out for free for a few months, and then after getting such excellent help with my first "help" post, I decided $10 a month was a bargain. That's me though. There is no pressure to upgrade your membership. They are completely non-profit. I recommend trying it out and see if you like it. If you decide later to upgrade, great! If not, great! It doesn't matter. There's even more to tell, but this isn't really the place. Check it out, and if you have any questions, just email me at:
pkrwuds@pacbell.net .

BTW, I am nothing more than a sponsoring member. I don't get a thing if someone signs up. I do not work for iATN in any manner. This is just so killer, I like to share it with everyone eligible.

Check it out!

Take care
~Chris

------------------
Retired Moderator
MustangNet

My site: JimPorterRacing

RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR

HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

Rick 91GT · 10-15-2001, 09:40 AM

Now that's what I call a reply!..lol

Thanks Chris, that network seems very helpful and it would be great to have access to that for almost anything you ever need and get real advice not guess or half informed info.

Thanks Alot,

Rick

wrathchild- Any new info?

------------------
Check Out My Site 91GT,Holley SysteMAX II Kit-Heads 2.02" x 1.60" port matched to a 1262,Anderson N-61,24#,76mm C&L,Full MAC, No A/C or PS or emissions, 12" K&N Filter,RNH PERFORMANCE Ram Air,Ron Davis Radiator,Full Suspension, SPEC stage III clutch, Lakewood SFI bell, S&W 8pt "X" brace,JAZ seats,3:73's,Welds..etc,4:30's and 31 splines coming very soon!
[b]12.16 @ 113.5, 1.78 60ft..no traction in the 90 degree

Phantom5oh · 10-15-2001, 11:17 AM

i had a similar problem over the summer... i couldn't find the problem for the life of me... it sounded like a rocker, but they were fine when i checked them... it always sounded like it came from the #4 cyl... couldn't find it anyplace so we checked #3 nothing... finally i just checked the alternator... bingo... the bearings were bad... it seems that the cast bracket used on my stang to hold the alternator and air pump in was transmitting the very very quiet sound into my passenger side valve cover, acting like an amplifier (like a bell does) i was pretty embarassed about it, but i guess its pretty common with aftermarket valve covers, since they are usually thinner than stock so they transmit sound differently... hope this helps...

Phantom

wrathchild · 10-16-2001, 12:58 AM

thanks phantom. I dont think that is the problem though. I have a new alternator on it. I am getting an oil pressure guage tomorrow to varify i have sufficient pressure. I hope i find it soon. This is making me very mad.

wrathchild · 10-16-2001, 02:19 PM

I got a guage and i have 45 psi of oil pressure at idle warm. Goes up to about 60 with throttle. So i know i have pressure. My idle is around 950 rpms. I just realized today that after the car idles for a while after driving the noise is no longer there. It usually is between 1200 - 1800 rpms but after idleing it is gone and as soon as i start driving again it comes back. Damn you cursed noise.

10-12-2001, 11:30 PM	#1
wrathchild Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: altoona pa usa Posts: 49	Engine builders please help PLease read over this and reply. I am pulling my hair out. I put together a motor. New everything. Block bored, 10:1 pistons alot of good stuff. Got it all together in the car got it started and running. At start up it sounded great but, as it warmed up i got some really bad and sometime weird rocker noise. The weird noise kinda sounded like a squeak or something along that line and only between 2200 and 1200 rpms. So this was about 2 weeks ago and since then i have adjusted the rockers about 20 times. I recently pulled the lower intake to check the lifters and when i did i found the lifters that i had received were about 1/8"taller than stock. Now i am running twisted wedge heads and trick flow says a 6.75 pushrod with .15 tolerance either way. So I was running 6.8 pushrods and with the taller lifter i was over the limit. Was like i was running a 6.925 pushrod. So i compensated with a shorter(6.65) pushrod. This would be like me running a 6.775 pushrod with the taller lifter. Well within the limits trick flow gives. Got it all back together today and took it out for a drive. The same thing happened at startup it ran nice and quiet but as it got up to operating temp it started making the same noises. So i came home adjusted the rockers and took it back out. The same noise. O ya i also went from 10-30 to 20-50 thinking that with a thicker oil it would quiet it up. It didnt. So whats my problem here? I think i have a lifter that is collapsing when the motor gets warm and as the oil thins out. Please guys help me out here. I am about ready to put a 8lb sledge into every body panel on my car. 306, 10:1 CR, twisted wedge heads, track heat intake, stage 1 cam, 1.6 trick flow rockers, 30 lb injectors, 70 mm TB, 76 mm MAS, 255 lph fuel pump,1 5/8 shorties, x pipe, flowmasters, 3.55's, [This message has been edited by wrathchild (edited 10-13-2001).]

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10-13-2001, 02:43 AM	#2
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	You need to verify the noise and where it's coming from. A collapsed lifter would make a clattering sound, not a squeaking sound. -C ------------------ Retired Moderator MustangNet My site: JimPorterRacing RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

10-13-2001, 11:17 AM	#3
Rick 91GT Procharged! Join Date: May 1999 Location: Hanover, PA Posts: 1,539	One thing you might want to check is the bushing in the distributor, not sure why it is only in the low rpms but it worth checking. I have seen these squeak/squeal when it goes bad. You really need to try to pin point the noise this will help. Good Luck, Rick ------------------ Check Out My Site 91GT,Holley SysteMAX II Kit-Heads 2.02" x 1.60" port matched to a 1262,Anderson N-61,24#,76mm C&L,Full MAC, No A/C or PS or emissions, 12" K&N Filter,RNH PERFORMANCE Ram Air,Ron Davis Radiator,Full Suspension, SPEC stage III clutch, Lakewood SFI bell, S&W 8pt "X" brace,JAZ seats,3:73's,Welds..etc,4:30's and 31 splines coming very soon! [b]12.16 @ 113.5, 1.78 60ft..no traction in the 90 degree

10-13-2001, 06:07 PM	#4
wrathchild Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: altoona pa usa Posts: 49	Would this bushing only make noise when warm? It definately sounds like it is coming from the front of the lifter valley. I had got it down to the number 5 cylinder. Somewhere right in that area. It is definately not coming from under the valve cover. WE used a stethiscope and no noise under the valve cover.

10-14-2001, 11:31 AM	#5
Rick 91GT Procharged! Join Date: May 1999 Location: Hanover, PA Posts: 1,539	Well the only way I know how to check is to squirt a little WD40 underneath the electronics in the distributor and start the motor to see if it goes away. I have no idea why it only does it when it gets warm unless the heat is expanding something...when my buddies went bad it made it all the time, he had checked everything and was about to tear the motor apart when I suggested looking at the distributor which is over looked becasue everyone forgets about that bushing, and that is what it was. Chris what do you think? Is this a good possiblity? I'm not ASE certified but what is iATN, I have always read that in your sig and have wondered. Nice pic on the site, the motor that gernaded was nice. ------------------ Check Out My Site 91GT,Holley SysteMAX II Kit-Heads 2.02" x 1.60" port matched to a 1262,Anderson N-61,24#,76mm C&L,Full MAC, No A/C or PS or emissions, 12" K&N Filter,RNH PERFORMANCE Ram Air,Ron Davis Radiator,Full Suspension, SPEC stage III clutch, Lakewood SFI bell, S&W 8pt "X" brace,JAZ seats,3:73's,Welds..etc,4:30's and 31 splines coming very soon! <B>12.16 @ 113.5, 1.78 60ft..no traction in the 90 degree [This message has been edited by Rick 91GT (edited 10-14-2001).] [This message has been edited by Rick 91GT (edited 10-14-2001).]

10-14-2001, 12:28 PM	#6
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Rick- Sure. Actually, now that I think about it, I had a buddy of mine with a carbed 302 that was making a similar whining noise. While the engine was running, we were observing it to see if we could figure it out. While watching, the distributor suddenly jerked so hard it ripped the wires off the cap (some of them, anyway). The oil grooves in the distributor shaft had clogged from heat and lack of regular oil changes. It seized. I ended up rebuilding it, but I I still had never seen that actually happen before. Might want to pull the distributor and inspect it. As far as iATN, this is the reply I wrote to the last person that asked. It's pretty killer! iATN is "the largest network of automotive technicians in the world. The International Automotive Technicians' Network is a group of 36,821 professional automotive technicians from 120 countries. The automotive professionals of this group exchange technical knowledge and information with other members from around the globe, sharing 734,387 years of experience!" By becoming a member, you'll join the thousands of other automotive professionals who make up the iATN. Being a part of this global network means you are serious about helping to further the automotive industry and helping yourself gain knowledge and experience. Interested in joining? Are you a full-time professional automotive technician interested in networking with other professionals from around the world? Do you have at least 4 years of full time work experience as an automotive technician, or are you currently ASE certified? If you answered yes to these questions, please consider becoming part of the largest network of professional automotive technicians in the world. We offer an incredible resource for automotive professionals, as detailed in the iATN membership overview. Professional technicians can join iATN here. Okay, that's in their words. In mine, it's killer. They have an email program in which members can send out a "help" email describing a problem they're having, and it will be sent to all of the members who have that make of vehicle and type of problem selected in their email preferences. Usually, you will receive a dozen or more replies within an hour or two with solutions to your problem. These aren't guesses, they are solutions from other pros who have experienced what you're going through, and know the answer. You will receive emails from other techs having trouble (I receive close to 70 a day), and if you can help, send them an email. If not, delete it. After a tech fixes the problem, they post a "fix" email describing what the solution was. This is great for learning about new problems in new and old vehicles. I have posted a help email 3 or 4 times in the 3 years I have been a member, and received excellent help, quickly, every time. There are also several message boards as well as factory supplied vehicle and tool info from sponsors like GM, Ford, Snap-on, Fluke, and dozens of others. This is 100% free. You do have the option to become a sponsoring member for $10 a month, which adds features like access to the entire email "fix" post database, where you can punch in the vehicle and type of problem, and see all of the fix posts ever made for it (usually hundreds), but you don't have to. I tried it out for free for a few months, and then after getting such excellent help with my first "help" post, I decided $10 a month was a bargain. That's me though. There is no pressure to upgrade your membership. They are completely non-profit. I recommend trying it out and see if you like it. If you decide later to upgrade, great! If not, great! It doesn't matter. There's even more to tell, but this isn't really the place. Check it out, and if you have any questions, just email me at: pkrwuds@pacbell.net . BTW, I am nothing more than a sponsoring member. I don't get a thing if someone signs up. I do not work for iATN in any manner. This is just so killer, I like to share it with everyone eligible. Check it out! Take care ~Chris ------------------ Retired Moderator MustangNet My site: JimPorterRacing RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

10-15-2001, 09:40 AM	#7
Rick 91GT Procharged! Join Date: May 1999 Location: Hanover, PA Posts: 1,539	*Now that's what I call a reply!..lol* Thanks Chris, that network seems very helpful and it would be great to have access to that for almost anything you ever need and get real advice not guess or half informed info. Thanks Alot, Rick wrathchild- Any new info? ------------------ Check Out My Site 91GT,Holley SysteMAX II Kit-Heads 2.02" x 1.60" port matched to a 1262,Anderson N-61,24#,76mm C&L,Full MAC, No A/C or PS or emissions, 12" K&N Filter,RNH PERFORMANCE Ram Air,Ron Davis Radiator,Full Suspension, SPEC stage III clutch, Lakewood SFI bell, S&W 8pt "X" brace,JAZ seats,3:73's,Welds..etc,4:30's and 31 splines coming very soon! [b]12.16 @ 113.5, 1.78 60ft..no traction in the 90 degree

10-15-2001, 11:17 AM	#8
Phantom5oh Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 334	i had a similar problem over the summer... i couldn't find the problem for the life of me... it sounded like a rocker, but they were fine when i checked them... it always sounded like it came from the #4 cyl... couldn't find it anyplace so we checked #3 nothing... finally i just checked the alternator... bingo... the bearings were bad... it seems that the cast bracket used on my stang to hold the alternator and air pump in was transmitting the very very quiet sound into my passenger side valve cover, acting like an amplifier (like a bell does) i was pretty embarassed about it, but i guess its pretty common with aftermarket valve covers, since they are usually thinner than stock so they transmit sound differently... hope this helps... Phantom

10-16-2001, 12:58 AM	#9
wrathchild Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: altoona pa usa Posts: 49	thanks phantom. I dont think that is the problem though. I have a new alternator on it. I am getting an oil pressure guage tomorrow to varify i have sufficient pressure. I hope i find it soon. This is making me very mad.

10-16-2001, 02:19 PM	#10
wrathchild Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: altoona pa usa Posts: 49	I got a guage and i have 45 psi of oil pressure at idle warm. Goes up to about 60 with throttle. So i know i have pressure. My idle is around 950 rpms. I just realized today that after the car idles for a while after driving the noise is no longer there. It usually is between 1200 - 1800 rpms but after idleing it is gone and as soon as i start driving again it comes back. Damn you cursed noise.