TW heads now 1/2 o-ringed - help....

DZEE'S LX · 01-08-2002, 05:05 PM

I bought a used set of ported Twisted Wedges w/o-ring grooves and recently had them checked over at a local (supposedly good) machine shop. Everything was good except we decided to surface them to flatten them up. They said I could just run the regular head gasket and that it would just fill up whatever groove was left. Since I am staying naturally aspirated I don't think I need (or need to pay extra for) the lock wire gaskets. They took off .005 in the machining. The remaining grooves range from .004 to .007 deep.

The caution flag went up when my parts house questioned the idea of using regular gaskets. Then I started digging for answers......so here's my dilema.

Trick Flow says the grooves must be .010 +/-.001 deep or don't run lockwire gaskets. If I don't want lockwire gaskets they say just have the machine shop mill down until the grooves are gone.

Fel-pro had the same story on groove depth but said be careful about intake fitup problems if you shave too much. He suggested peening copper wire into the grooves and draw filing flat.

The other option would be to regroove, but again it seems like I don't really need the grooves...

Please let me know if you have gone either way with this situation or what makes more sense.

How much can you shave and still get the intake to fit? I will be using a TFS Street intake.

Thanks,
Dan

DZEE'S LX · 01-08-2002, 11:12 PM

Any ideas on this?
The machine shop manager is back tomarrow and I hope to have a little more "expertise" when I talk to him.

Thanks,
Dan

Unit 5302 · 01-08-2002, 11:25 PM

You don't want or need Oringed head gaskets. So however you get the gaskets to work, that's what you need to do. I would probably believe the gaskets will take up the oringing, but check with your builder.

302 LX Eric · 01-09-2002, 09:36 AM

You don't need O-ringed heads, but, it will not hurt you either. What you should have done was just leave the O-rings alone and paid the $100 for Fel-Pro Lockwire headgaskets. Ok, I'll step down now.

Now, since this is no longer an option....I think you will just have to try out different ways to get this to work. Definately get the opinion of a reputable engine shop. They see these types of issues all the time.

To ensure that you don't have intake fit-up issues, I would just get the heads re-O-ringed and considered it a lesson learned.

On the other hand does another .004-.007 really make a difference on intake fit? I'm not sure.

Good luck with your issue.
E

DZEE'S LX · 01-09-2002, 12:20 PM

I know, I know.......it doesn't seem too smart now. But the original plan was to simply flatten the surface and run regular gaskets.
Unfortunately my builder is me, I'm one of those DIY's. This is just one more lesson and now I'm hoping for more good help from you guys....

2FastLX · 01-09-2002, 01:41 PM

Let's look at this realistically. They took off .005" to begin with, and you have another .008" max to take off to full clean up. Do you realize how small that total figure of .013" is? Stack 3 sheets of notebook paper up and there you go.

If the heads have never been shaved prior to this I'd say you have nothing to worry about. Shave them some more. If they have, you can always use thicker head gaskets to make up the difference to get them lined back up with the intake, or you can have the intake cut to match. Either way it's not a real big task to make things work. Have the chambers CC'ed to see just how much material has been removed if you want to be safe.

Also talk to the builder about valve train geometry. You'll have to shim the rockers to get things lined back up I believe.

Good luck.

racin85 · 01-10-2002, 10:26 PM

mill the heads to get rid of thr o-ring grooves.U could have problems sealing if u don't.My buddy had his milled because they wouldn't seal,haven't had a problem in last 2-3 years.Good luck!

Unit 5302 · 01-11-2002, 01:03 AM

Here's my opinion on Oringing heads. Unless you are running serious boost, they can be detremental. If you detonate, especially under boost, you'll destroy a piston if you are o ringed. If you have standard gaskets instead, you blow a head gasket Which would you rather deal with?

Obviously that applies much more to boosted engines than N/A engines. Chances are you'll get a little notice on a N/A engine before you lose either gasket or piston.

If you are running serious boost, it may be too much compression for the 4 bolt Ford heads to keep sealed, even under normal circumstances, which is where the Oringing is really necessary.

01-08-2002, 05:05 PM	#1
DZEE'S LX Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 117	TW heads now 1/2 o-ringed - help.... I bought a used set of ported Twisted Wedges w/o-ring grooves and recently had them checked over at a local (supposedly good) machine shop. Everything was good except we decided to surface them to flatten them up. They said I could just run the regular head gasket and that it would just fill up whatever groove was left. Since I am staying naturally aspirated I don't think I need (or need to pay extra for) the lock wire gaskets. They took off .005 in the machining. The remaining grooves range from .004 to .007 deep. The caution flag went up when my parts house questioned the idea of using regular gaskets. Then I started digging for answers......so here's my dilema. Trick Flow says the grooves must be .010 +/-.001 deep or don't run lockwire gaskets. If I don't want lockwire gaskets they say just have the machine shop mill down until the grooves are gone. Fel-pro had the same story on groove depth but said be careful about intake fitup problems if you shave too much. He suggested peening copper wire into the grooves and draw filing flat. The other option would be to regroove, but again it seems like I don't really need the grooves... Please let me know if you have gone either way with this situation or what makes more sense. How much can you shave and still get the intake to fit? I will be using a TFS Street intake. Thanks, Dan __________________ Spec Service (UHP), BFG G-Force KDW's, Turbo Coupe 3.55 rear w/disks, 73mm calipers, Stg 1 Twisted Wedges, TFS Street Intake, 70mm TB, E cam, Crane 1.7's, Aeromotive FPR, BBK 1 5/8 shorties, elec fan, FMS Al Radiator, Moroso Wires, Kenne Bell Ramair, March pulleys, Race Magnums, 190 lph Walbro, FMS Al Dshaft, D/S loop, MM 4point rollbar, FMS C spngs, strut tower brace, Tokico Illuminas, Prothane bushings, MM Lwr Conrol Arms, KB welded subs, Cervini Mach 1 hood/valence/side skirts/wing/airdam. Last edited by DZEE'S LX; 01-08-2002 at 07:14 PM..

01-08-2002, 11:12 PM	#2
DZEE'S LX Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 117	Any ideas on this? The machine shop manager is back tomarrow and I hope to have a little more "expertise" when I talk to him. Thanks, Dan __________________ Spec Service (UHP), BFG G-Force KDW's, Turbo Coupe 3.55 rear w/disks, 73mm calipers, Stg 1 Twisted Wedges, TFS Street Intake, 70mm TB, E cam, Crane 1.7's, Aeromotive FPR, BBK 1 5/8 shorties, elec fan, FMS Al Radiator, Moroso Wires, Kenne Bell Ramair, March pulleys, Race Magnums, 190 lph Walbro, FMS Al Dshaft, D/S loop, MM 4point rollbar, FMS C spngs, strut tower brace, Tokico Illuminas, Prothane bushings, MM Lwr Conrol Arms, KB welded subs, Cervini Mach 1 hood/valence/side skirts/wing/airdam.

01-09-2002, 09:36 AM	#4
302 LX Eric or '331 LX Eric' Join Date: Jan 1999 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 2,142	You don't need O-ringed heads, but, it will not hurt you either. What you should have done was just leave the O-rings alone and paid the $100 for Fel-Pro Lockwire headgaskets. Ok, I'll step down now. Now, since this is no longer an option....I think you will just have to try out different ways to get this to work. Definately get the opinion of a reputable engine shop. They see these types of issues all the time. To ensure that you don't have intake fit-up issues, I would just get the heads re-O-ringed and considered it a lesson learned. On the other hand does another .004-.007 really make a difference on intake fit? I'm not sure. Good luck with your issue. E __________________ 1991 5.0 LX Coupe - 40,750 miles 331 cu. in. / Tremec 3550 / BFG Drag Radials 12.22 @ 114.31 mph - w/1.89 60'

01-09-2002, 12:20 PM	#5
DZEE'S LX Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 117	I know, I know.......it doesn't seem too smart now. But the original plan was to simply flatten the surface and run regular gaskets. Unfortunately my builder is me, I'm one of those DIY's. This is just one more lesson and now I'm hoping for more good help from you guys.... __________________ Spec Service (UHP), BFG G-Force KDW's, Turbo Coupe 3.55 rear w/disks, 73mm calipers, Stg 1 Twisted Wedges, TFS Street Intake, 70mm TB, E cam, Crane 1.7's, Aeromotive FPR, BBK 1 5/8 shorties, elec fan, FMS Al Radiator, Moroso Wires, Kenne Bell Ramair, March pulleys, Race Magnums, 190 lph Walbro, FMS Al Dshaft, D/S loop, MM 4point rollbar, FMS C spngs, strut tower brace, Tokico Illuminas, Prothane bushings, MM Lwr Conrol Arms, KB welded subs, Cervini Mach 1 hood/valence/side skirts/wing/airdam.

01-09-2002, 01:41 PM	#6
2FastLX The Photoshop Guru Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Mecca, Indiana Posts: 1,419	Let's look at this realistically. They took off .005" to begin with, and you have another .008" max to take off to full clean up. Do you realize how small that total figure of .013" is? Stack 3 sheets of notebook paper up and there you go. If the heads have never been shaved prior to this I'd say you have nothing to worry about. Shave them some more. If they have, you can always use thicker head gaskets to make up the difference to get them lined back up with the intake, or you can have the intake cut to match. Either way it's not a real big task to make things work. Have the chambers CC'ed to see just how much material has been removed if you want to be safe. Also talk to the builder about valve train geometry. You'll have to shim the rockers to get things lined back up I believe. Good luck. __________________ Project: 1988 Coupe - EFI 5.8L Twin Turbo with Victor intake, Canfield heads, F303 cam, March aluminum underdrive pulleys, TKO (or T56 if funds permit), PBR twin piston calipers and 13" rotors up front, 94 Cobra rear calipers and 12" rotors on the rear, 3.73's, Griggs K-member, tubular front control arms, torque arm and panhard bar, polished 99 Cobra wheels. "The GR-40 kit installation is now complete, and the humble Fox-chassis car will now out-corner and out-stop a ZR-1 or a Viper, and support massive horsepower additions with perfect balance." Griggs Racing ICQ# 42269241

01-08-2002, 11:25 PM	#3
Unit 5302 Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Posts: 5,246	You don't want or need Oringed head gaskets. So however you get the gaskets to work, that's what you need to do. I would probably believe the gaskets will take up the oringing, but check with your builder.

01-10-2002, 10:26 PM	#7
racin85 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: libertycenter,oh,us Posts: 73	mill the heads to get rid of thr o-ring grooves.U could have problems sealing if u don't.My buddy had his milled because they wouldn't seal,haven't had a problem in last 2-3 years.Good luck! __________________ 85 capri,balanced .030 over 79 302,windage tray polished/weight matched rods w/arp bolts.63 289 heads port/polish with FMS windsor springs. Torker 289 intake,514 solidcam,1.6rr.mac long tubes,off-road h,and pro dumps.T-5`4.10's on auburn HD carrier.NOS CHEATER kit,pullies and plenty more.Best NA run 1.683 60ft 7.837 @ 87 12.353 @ 109.05 NOS,11.21@ 116 1.49 60ft

01-11-2002, 01:03 AM	#8
Unit 5302 Registered Member Join Date: May 1999 Posts: 5,246	Here's my opinion on Oringing heads. Unless you are running serious boost, they can be detremental. If you detonate, especially under boost, you'll destroy a piston if you are o ringed. If you have standard gaskets instead, you blow a head gasket Which would you rather deal with? Obviously that applies much more to boosted engines than N/A engines. Chances are you'll get a little notice on a N/A engine before you lose either gasket or piston. If you are running serious boost, it may be too much compression for the 4 bolt Ford heads to keep sealed, even under normal circumstances, which is where the Oringing is really necessary.

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