which alphabet cam

[Unit 5302]

Originally posted by RayC76

I think it all comes down to getting a cam for your driving style and intent. The alphabet cams were made for the masses for varying style of engine combos and driving styles. I have had e, and b cams in past cars and they are not the greatest. I think the cam is one of the most vital parts of the engine and you should choose one for your combo not everybody else’s. Take a look at the link I posted earlier and read the articles Buddy wrote. Cam truth is a good one.

I have heard and seen these cams go either way. Sure they make more power than stock but almost anything would.

So spending $150 dollars more on a cam is expensive? I have seen people blow money on worse $hit for their cars that do not do anything.

Do you have proof that they last longer than a custom?

Again, is $150 worth 10hp? I think so. Also better drivability, idle, power through the rpm range... the list goes on.

Now you can take a look at my posts on cams.

#1 The stock cam is a GOOD cam. Don't know why it's so hard for people to comprehend that. In head to head comparisons, the F303 in particular does great. Any cam can screw a combo, and I've seen people post where the cam they were recommended turned out to be a POS for them. If the combo is setup right, ie selecting the right cam for the combo, it's going to make good power.

#2 Spending $150 more on a cam to get the exact same result or worse is expensive. I'm not in the habit of blowing money, period.

#3 I don't have to prove they last longer than custom. I never said custom cams wouldn't last, just that the alpha cams have the history behind them to prove they do.

#4 Better drivability. How? Explain this to me. The F303 has good LSA, maintains vacuum, has a nice, solid duration, good lift that can be used in combo with any decent springs and it makes the same power in tests as most of the aftermarket high dollar cams, and I've never seen a heads up comparison where it's down more than 5rwhp or so. It makes good midrange, keeps the lowend alive, and the top end is solid as well. I'm not saying that there are not better cams out there. I'm saying that the alphabet cams get a bad rap because numb nutz the cam wiz kid throws the X cam into a stock speed density 87GT and then can't get it to work so he jumps on the alphabet cam hating wagon. The E303 is known to have some vacuum issues on occation and mysterious idle surge. The B303 just isn't a whole lot of good below 3000rpm because of the overlap.

[b]Mach 1[b/], The E303 does have more LSA than the B303 110 vs 112, and it's better with the LCA at 107/117 vs the B303's 109/119, but you forgot to include the fact the B303 has 4* more duration. So while off center the E303 has roughly 1* per side more overlap as far as LSA and LCA are concerned, it gives up 2* per side with the extra duration. End result? The B303 cam has more overlap than the E303.

[andy669]

Originally posted by 93GTDIN
how is the idle on the F303 cam? Is it like stock, lumpier than stock, or say, alot rougher than stock?

I put between 10 and 15,000 miles on my F cam when it was in my 94. It has a VERY lumpy idle! I liked the cam! It performed well for me, and it sounded awesome!

Andy

[sn95gt19]

could someone post the specs. on the f-cam, im thinking about going that way but please post. thanks

[stevstum]

If your car is set up for street go with the cam that is going to get you low end power. If it for the strip get one that kicks in at about 1500 RPM's. Remember not to over cam it, because there are a lot of folks making crazy power on smaller cams.

I would personally check out Lunati for a cam. My 2 cents.

[RayC76]

Originally posted by Unit 5302
#1 The stock cam is a GOOD cam. Don't know why it's so hard for people to comprehend that. In head to head comparisons, the F303 in particular does great. Any cam can screw a combo, and I've seen people post where the cam they were recommended turned out to be a POS for them. If the combo is setup right, ie selecting the right cam for the combo, it's going to make good power.

I never said the stock cam was a bad cam. I have seen what they can do at nmra races. It’s impressive. As far as cams that are recommend to them, I would only trust Ed Curtis or Buddy Rawls. This is because of the cars they have done and I have seen at the track or an event. I’m sure there are plenty more out there though. I agree that if the setup is done right its going to make good power.

#2 Spending $150 more on a cam to get the exact same result or worse is expensive. I'm not in the habit of blowing money, period.

You said that you can get 10 hp, how is this the same result?

#3 I don't have to prove they last longer than custom. I never said custom cams wouldn't last, just that the alpha cams have the history behind them to prove they do.

That’s fine. You just threw that out there and I was wondering if you saw something I didn’t.

#4 Better drivability. How? Explain this to me. The F303 has good LSA, maintains vacuum, has a nice, solid duration, good lift that can be used in combo with any decent springs and it makes the same power in tests as most of the aftermarket high dollar cams, and I've never seen a heads up comparison where it's down more than 5rwhp or so. It makes good midrange, keeps the lowend alive, and the top end is solid as well. I'm not saying that there are not better cams out there. I'm saying that the alphabet cams get a bad rap because numb nutz the cam wiz kid throws the X cam into a stock speed density 87GT and then can't get it to work so he jumps on the alphabet cam hating wagon. The E303 is known to have some vacuum issues on occation and mysterious idle surge. The B303 just isn't a whole lot of good below 3000rpm because of the overlap.

You got me on the f cam. I don’t have much experience with this one. You have peaked my interest and I’m going to keep my eyes and ears open for it when I go to events. About its specs though, it all comes down to the combo being correct to make it work right? I was basing my statements on drivability from cars that I have seen with a lot of different combos, not just one engine and different cams for a magazine test. I agree with you on some kid throwing x cam into x car and it running like $hit. I see that all the time. If they can jump on the alphabet cam hating bandwagon because of their bad experience, don’t you think there are the same people that do that with customs?

Ray

[Green9550]

stevstum has a great point. If you are smart you will listen to what he has to say. It is the same thing Unit was saying about a kid putting an X cam in an 87 speed density mustang, you can over cam a car if you don't have a clue about your engine.

If I were you I would call Buddy Rawls or Ed Curtis to get a custom cam. But if you are not into that, give Lunati, Comp Cams, Crane, or Trick Flow a call and just ask them questions about what cam they would recomend and why. They are all very knowledgable with cams that they sell and they can tell you why some cams will work and why some cams won't. Just give them a call, it is worth the effort. Good luck in your choice. Take it easy.

-Billy

[Mach 1]

Originally posted by Unit 5302
[B]

Mach 1[b/], The E303 does have more LSA than the B303 110 vs 112, and it's better with the LCA at 107/117 vs the B303's 109/119, but you forgot to include the fact the B303 has 4* more duration. So while off center the E303 has roughly 1* per side more overlap as far as LSA and LCA are concerned, it gives up 2* per side with the extra duration. End result? The B303 cam has more overlap than the E303.

I meant to say the E has more overlap than the B, not less. 110 LSA is less than 114 LSA , creating more overlap, a narrower powerband, and more computer car driveability problems in my experience, and also the reason I think there are so many problems with the E cam.

The F-cam is a little high on duration now that I look at the specs. Might also cause driveability problems, but I have no experience with the F cam.

I didnt quite understand all that about the B cam having more overlap than the E even though the LSA is more, because of the higher duration. Care to explain that again?

And would this mean the F cam has more overlap than the B or E, even though it has the widest LSA, because it has even more duartion than the b or E?

[Mach 1]

Originally posted by Green9550
stevstum has a great point. If you are smart you will listen to what he has to say.

Not exactly. He recommended a cam that kicks in at 1500 rpm for the track. A cam that kicks in that early is for the street, not the track.

Originally posted by Green9550
[B
But if you are not into that, give Lunati, Comp Cams, Crane, or Trick Flow a call and just ask them questions about what cam they would recomend and why. They are all very knowledgable with cams that they sell and they can tell you why some cams will work and why some cams won't. Just give them a call, it is worth the effort. Good luck in your choice. Take it easy.

-Billy [/B]

That isnt necessarily true eithier. Have you ever called any of those places? I have, and have talked to several others who were also very disappointed with the quality of service, tech advice and effort given by some of the so called "cam help tech lines".

[Unit 5302]

Mach 1In terms of pure overlap, duration also has to be considered.

http://users.spec.net/home/emxjc/cam_shaft_power.html

Try that link for an in depth explaination. Duration does affect overlap, and lift affects overlap area. The F303 has quite a bit of overlap as well. The actual way overlap functions is related to ramp rates, lift, duration, LSA, and LCA.

Cams suck. It's my little area of interest now. It's gonna be a while before I learn what I want to know, which is a lot. LOL. Everytime I think I have a little better grasp on how they work, there is another variable. Like sending a shuttle to the moon.

RayC76 You might get 10hp if you get an awesome cam. You might lose 10hp if you get an okay cam. My uncle had a couple cams recommended to him. The recommended Lunati was a POS. Wouldn't even index. The Comp Cam he was recommended and purchased performed crappy with his combo.

[Mach 1]

Originally posted by Unit 5302
[B]Cams suck. It's my little area of interest now. It's gonna be a while before I learn what I want to know, which is a lot. LOL. Everytime I think I have a little better grasp on how they work, there is another variable. Like sending a shuttle to the moon.

[.

I agree. I have tried to study them, but just when you think you got them figured out, you realize you are only scratching the surface.

I just read a 7 page article on "camshaft truths" on the web written by an engineer.

What did I get out of the 7 pages of theory and mumbo jumbo...nothing...lol.

He basically was stateing the importance of "camshaft timing events" and how they relate to RPM.

Just try to get one that matches your combinations "potential" flow and RPM range. Thats about all you can do, unless you have the resources to experiment and custom grind your own, and even then, it would only be optimal only on your exact particular engine.

[RayC76]

Originally posted by Unit 5302
You might get 10hp if you get an awesome cam. You might lose 10hp if you get an okay cam. My uncle had a couple cams recommended to him. The recommended Lunati was a POS. Wouldn't even index. The Comp Cam he was recommended and purchased performed crappy with his combo.

I would never get a recommendation from a big company. Who knows what kind of person is on the other line. Thats why I listed two names that I would trust. Those two guys are for mustangs only, I have others for chevrolet products.

Unit 5302 and Mach 1, you guys make me laugh. I feel the same way about cams and trying to understand them. Every time I think I know something, I realize I do not know much at all lol. Good thread guys. I learned some stuff and nice link unit 5302, I have not seen that one yet.

Ray

[srv1]

can anyone explain to me what is wrong with the stock cam? especially in my stock 90. i hear people make up to 350 hp on a stock cam with certain combos. is this true? i think the alphabet cam "E" is a good cam for a stick car. my friend has it in his 85 with 89 motor in it and everything else is basically stock. it pulls nicely. if your a serious street/strip person, then my choice would be the custom grind.

[Ieatcamaros]

I know this is a dumb question here at Mustang works. But did anyone read the little thumbnail on page 197 of 5.0 Mustang and super fords? It is about the stock cams and their tolerances from Ford. It says that the stock cams vary from 114 to 120 degrees. I just wonder if the alphabet cams from Ford are in the same boat. Even though the stock cams came from different sources? I am asking this because I am a firm believer in the F303. Anyone have any input on this? Thanks.

[Unit 5302]

Originally posted by Ieatcamaros
I know this is a dumb question here at Mustang works. But did anyone read the little thumbnail on page 197 of 5.0 Mustang and super fords? It is about the stock cams and their tolerances from Ford. It says that the stock cams vary from 114 to 120 degrees. I just wonder if the alphabet cams from Ford are in the same boat. Even though the stock cams came from different sources? I am asking this because I am a firm believer in the F303. Anyone have any input on this? Thanks.

I'd have to see that in person to believe it. 114-120 LSA? That's absolutely gigantic. I mean fricken HUGE HUGE HUGE.

srv1, you'd have to have one seriously built engine to make 350hp with the stock cam. Such a combo would easily see 50hp by a swapping to a more appropriate cam. I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm just saying not many will. High compression will certainly get you a lot more hp with the stock grind, but for a street setup, you're probably going to be limited to under 320hp, no matter what street combo you use. There is nothing wrong with the stock cam until you start seeing 300hp or so. It's got an LSA of about 116 if I remember right, and it's lift is pretty mild at .444. Even with 1.7's it's a mild cam. Compared to the economy cams it's a powerhouse, but for a high performance 302, it's not a good higher rpm cam.

[Ieatcamaros]

That is what I thought!!! That is a wide tolerance range.

[Shogun]

I have a modded motor with an F-cam. Makes very good power above 3000 not much under. I installed it "straight up" It is good enough to take any F-body that I might encounter on my travels. LOL. lopes a little but not to bad. But then again I am willing to sacrifice a little drivablilty for power.

[Slider302]

Im in pretty much of the same boat as the rest of you, trying to build an engine that will detach my retinas when I punch the gas. I've come to learn some truths about engines as i've gone along in life and my job (im a mechanic), it is easy to over cam an engine that will see mostly street duty and occational drag strip time. I've had several friends run low 13's with an E303 cam with a good set of heads (Trick Flow, Edelbrock, Ect.....), but do not want the idle roll problems of that cam. For my combo (brand new block, I beam rods, TRW forged pistons, stock crank, stock oil pump, Canton windage screen,Aluminum flywheel, ported stock E7TE heads with chevy 1.94/1.60 intake and exhaust valves 56 CC combustion chambers and heavily ported) I chose the B303 cam. I have driven mustangs with this cam and liked the power, it comes on hard at 3000 to 4000 depending on the combo but is still soft enough down low so as not to make your mustang a pain in the *** to drive in the rain. As for the lift, if you subsitute 1.7 rockers instead of 1.6's you will get .510 lift instead of.480 which is better than the E303 without the idle problems. With the above combo 12.70's at 105 MPH in the quarter are possible in a combo that is easy to live with on a daily basis.