This country

[Mr 5 0]

Ah, the Libertarian point of view has arrivived. Nice to see you, Kell.

Unit 5302's take on the Federal Reserve Bank and the government as controllers of the U.S. economy are broad enough to be fairly accurate and I won't dispute them. His view of the Republican and Democrat parties basically being two sides of the same coin, I will dispute because it is a very narrow view that ignores some realities.

How many Democrats voted for the 2002 Bush tax rate cuts? Few. The usual Democrat position on economic issues is always more taxes and more government regulation seconded by lame attempts to micro-manage the economy, which almost always fail.

How many Democrats would have responded to 9/11 the way President Bush - a Republican - did? We can debate the wisdom and necessity of the Iraq invasion all day, but the invasion of Afghanistan was needed and necessarily swift, unlike what I can only guess would have been a tepid, 'lets-form-a committee' response by a 'President Gore'.

How many Democrats are against same-sex marriage and abortion-on-demand? Few. Meanwhile, these same hot-button social issues have served to galvanize the right and helped re-elect George W. Bush - a Republican - against the most concerted and furious attacks on one man I have ever seen in an election campaign, and I have seen more than a few. Yet, Bush still won by a margin that may not have been huge but was enought to thwart expected DNC attempts to call the election or Bush's victory 'Illegal' or unconvincing. It was neither - and the Democrats know it as they lost more seats in congress in the last election, and not by accident.

The point should be clear that while both political parties may love to dish out the 'pork' and expand government, as the Republicans have been doing, as well as being friendly to big business, which usually makes sense and is done by both parties, they are miles apart on significent issues such as economics, social policy and national defense. You may nort agree with either side in these debates but to dismiss the two major political parties in America as 'the same' is simply wrong, although many do just in order to appear politically sophisticated, so Unit 5302 is not alone in his misconceptions.

I also believe Unit 5302 overstates the alleged 'failure' of NAFTA and other free trade laws and ignores the fact that Mexico's corrupt government is a large part of the economic problem that drives poor Mexicans into the U.S. for a better living. The millions of U.S. dollars illegal Mexican immigrants send back to Mexico every year helps that nations economy while sucking dollars out of ours and that needs to be curtailed. Unfortunately, both major political parties refuse to address the porous Mexican border situation, to their shame. The lack of seriousness on the border issue is one of conservatives pet peeves with President Bush, for good reason. I believe it's a national security issue as well as an economic one that will bite us in our collective, national butt if allowed to fester much longer.

While I am no fan of some corporate mergers, I disagree that stockholders of major corporations, which includes almost half of all Americans these days, are hardly 'suffering' from them, as Unit 5302 indicated. I do not see the big negative effect on consumers, either. In fact, household income in the U.S. (adjusted for inflation, which is also minimal and a significent economic factor) has gone up noticably over the past few years as unemployment has gone down steadily and millions of new jobs have been created, which makes the old argument that 'all the good paying jobs are going to foreign countries' a bit hard to justify, at best. Not that it stops anyone from trying. The reality is that only about 2% of all 'U.S. jobs' have 'gone overseas'. Incidentally, home ownership is also at an all-time high (70%) - and you don't buy a home on Burger King or Wal-Mart pay, as any homeowner can tell you. I will agree with Unit 5302 that the recent Energy Bill was a disaster and the subsidies given to oil companies was simply unconscionable. Chalk up yet another conservative disagreement with President Bush.

The canard that political conservatives want to 'force' their 'religion' on America is - I'm sorry - just BS. Really. Liberal politicians managed to remove voluntary prayer in schools over 40 years ago. The leftist advocacy groups who are 'offended' at anything have made any 'religious' utterance in a public venue, especially a school, almost a crime and the left has made the inclusion of the words 'Under God' in the Pledge of Alligence, which stood for 50 years with no one being 'offended' a huge legal battle. Meanwhile, a liberal Supreme Court calls abortion and homosexual behavior constitutional 'rights' and generally run over the actual constitutional rights of citizens to determine these things for themselves, state by state. Yet folks like Unit 5302 claim the 'right' is 'forcing' their 'religion' and opinions on others? Hardly.

That the Ten Commandment monuments were vehemently objected to by some leftist/atheist groups after standing in place for years, is not because the 'conservatives forced them' on anyone, but because the left decided to make what had bothered no one a big issue based on the non-existent 'separation of church and state' concept that appears nowhere in the actual constitution of the United States of America. The insane idea from the left that if the government in any way simply recognizes the majority religion of the people with a few symbols of Christian thought, such as the Ten Commandments, it is somehow mandating a specific religion be foisted on helpless Americans who are unwilling to accept it, is simply ridiculous. These monuments stood for years with no problem until the leftist groups made an issue of them. When conservative groups fight back against this anti-religious bullying, they are accused of 'foisting their religion on the public'. What a crock! That kind of intellectual dishonesty frys me and I am sick of dealing with it, yet it never seems to abate. The Supreme Court delievered yet another muddled decision on that one, too. I am rooting for John Roberts, big-time, now.

Here's a NewsFlash: all political movements try to have their 'opinions' codified. All of them. That is what elections are about. We judge each candidate by his stated views on whatever matters to us: economics, cultural issues (like abortion), national security, etc and we vote for the candidate (and his political party) that we feel represents our views the best, understanding that no politician will ever mirror our personal views 100%. None. However, we all want our views - whatever they are - to predominate so we vote for politicians who we feel will help them do so in congress and of course, the White House. Pretending that one votes for anything less than that is simply disingenuous or else you're voting for a candidate that may perfectly match your stated political principles but has as much chance of actually winning an election as Michael Jackson has of being hired as your kid's babysitter. That gets no one anywhere. It also is a hallmark of the Libertarian Party, which sneers at both major political party's but can't get any of it's candidates elected dogcatcher. Well, maybe dogcatcher - but not governors, congressional representatives, senators or presidents. It's mostly a lot of posturing, finger-pointing and attempting a pretense of being more principled than thou. It is also futile and serves to massage Libertarian's egos - but not much else. But I digress.

As for the position Unit 5302 took on U.S. relations with Cuba: that reflects either a woeful lack of historical and political understanding or simple ignorance. I trust it is the former. I really do.

Cuba is a tropical gulag run by a brutal dictator with hundreds if not thousands of 'political prisoners' in it's jails, some for decades. Those are the ones Castro hasn't had killed. Cuba is a police state and has been the source of much of the unrest in Latin America over the decades. Most Americans are aware that as a U.S.S.R. client state in 1962, Cuba was used by the Soviets to house missiles aimed directly at the United States, only 90 miles away. That was an outrageous act of aggression by both the Soviet Union and Cuba. It also precipitated the Kennedy/Kruschev 'Cuban Missle Crisis' of October, 1962. Watch the movie for the shorthand version of that historical event. Long story short: we were actually on the brink of war for a short time, thanks to Castro and Krushchev and their underestimation of then-Preisent Kennedy - and American's resolve.

Cuba's communist dictator, Fidel Castro, almost 78 years old now and still fully in charge, has avowed his hatred of the United States many times and has always been friendly to any group or nation that is an enemy of ours. That has not changed in 45 years. Today, he continues to foment upheavals in other Latin American nations and is rumored to have allowed Cuba to be a way-station for terrorists, which is not hard to imagine. That we retain an embargo on Cuba and Unit 5302 believes we do so only because Fidel Castro 'made some rich people mad' 50 years ago is absurd and not verified by history. Not that the embargo has much effect on Cuba, anyway - every other country trades with Cuba so it's mostly symbolic at this point - but to attribute it to some class-envy libertarian nonsense about making 'rich people mad' is just ridiculous. Cuba is a totaltarian police state...Castro has attempted to use his pipsqueak nation as a launching pad to attack the United States and has never wavered in his intent to harm this nation in any way, big or small, that he can. With that reality in mind, our isolation of the U.S. from Castro's Cuban gulag is quite understandable.

Iraq and Afghanistan were hardly 'helpless' targets of American military power, Iraq, particularly, was in violation of it's own cease-fire agreement brokered by the U.N. to end the Gulf War in 1991. Saddam Hussein could have stopped the planned invasion cold had he surrendered his biological and chemical weapons immediately. He choose not to do so. I think they were spirited out of Iraq pre-war, probably to Syria. In any case, Saddam gambled and lost and the people of Iraq, won. While the security of Iraq is coming at a price in American blood, the cause is just. Iraq and the middle east will be a better place in time because of the overthrow of Saddam and his regime. While I expect Iraq to be a dangerous place for some time to come and it will no doubt have an Islamic-heavy government, Iraq will also be an ally of the U.S., not an enemy. I'll take it.

As for Kell's conclusion that 'Americans are stupid'...I disagree. Sometimes mislead by the liberal media, often apathetic and occasionally inattentive...after all, they have work to do, kids to raise and lives to lead aside from politics...Americans are some of the best educated, most generous people on the planet but with a diverse nation of almost 300 million people, it's difficult to please everyone. I advise most people who show a nascent interest in politics, as 'bmxmon' has here, to - as Unit 5302 recommended - educate yourself. Not by the TV news shows, which tell you what they want you to hear, or a biased website but by doing the hard work of reading recent American history, deciding what parties and politicians stand for and what you would like this nation to be in 20 years, then voting for the politician and/or party that comes anywhere close to that goal. That's democracy manifested by an informed electorate. Be one of the informed.

It will drive you crazy sometimes as you see Washington at work, wasting your money or ignoring big problems while grandstanding on petty ones and you'll be at odds with political and social points of view that will differ from your own, as you see in this thread - but at least you'll have a fairly informed opinion and more than a TV news soundbite or a politicians slick campaign ad to make a judgement on.

Best of all, like Kell and me...you'll know where you stand, and why.

[Unit 5302]

Quite frankly, I think the Libertarians are nuts. According to their website, I'm more liberal than conservative and "Centrist." According to my political compass, I'm just about dead center. -0.75, 0.31 (liberal/conservative), (liberatarian/authoritarian), respectively. I'm apparently neutral-good in my alignment.

The fact that democrats vote against republican bills or republicans vote against democrat bills has nothing to do with having different values or ideas. It simply confirms my ascertations. Democrats and republicans alike approved the invasion into Afghanistan. Gore would have done the same because the American people demanded it. It's nearly polictical suicide to go against such a movement.

I agree, democrats would not have invaded Iraq because their leadership would not have wanted to invade. That's just it, though. Republican and democrat policies are simply handed down by a few in the leadership position, and the rest of the lackies get in line. I submit Norm Coleman MN, Ralph Hall TX, Rodney Alexander LA, Michael Decker NC, and Brad Ghormley TX. They're all representatives that have switched sides in the past few years. Most noting that they expected greater cooperation for doing so, and they're all party line followers. So they followed the democrat party lines one day, and the republican party lines the next.

So while I indicated there is little difference between the two, it's more of at an individual level, but somewhat the same at a high level as well. Interestingly enough, abortion rights and homosexual issues do not concern me so they're mute points. Regarding economic issues, it's basically 2+3 = 5 vs 3+2 = 5. The republicans have a reputation for being staunch spenders, thrifty by comparision to their democrat counterparts. The republicans favor smaller government and lower taxes while democrats favor larger goverment and higher taxes (currently bordering on socialism). This administration has dramatically increased the size of government along with pushing through every spending bill they could. It's like a kid with a credit card, literally, as borrowing and increasing the national debt has hurt the value of our currency in the world. So, unfortunately, the differences between the parties seem very much to be religious issues.

That being said, I'm not attacking any party any more or less than the others. There is no need to defend Bush, a particular party or any other cantidate to me. It doesn't matter anymore, anyway. What matters is next time. Like anything in life, you just do the best with what you have.

My comments about the conservative right doing all it can to seize power politically to further their religion onto others are correct. While Mr 5.0 may indicate there is a less sinister reason behind the growing movement (everybody pushing for what they want being natural), it does not lessen the impact on non-Christians. It may be worth noting that Christianity is not doing as well as some other religions in the US in regard to recruitment of new members, and I have to wonder if that's why it feels a little more like a Chinese finger trap. As power slips away, the tighter and more extreme the hold gets. One point. The churches and not the federal government need to determine who gets married as marriage is most definitely a religious ceremony. I think the God of Abraham made his position abundantly clear in the Holy Bible. If the church is truly following that word, then it shouldn't allow gay marriage. Quite frankly, I think the government should pull the tax emempt status of any "Christian" church that does allow it, unless that church comes up with a new religion they practice because it's obviously not Christianity. That's pretty much a different topic altogether, though.

It's probably unfair to single out the right wing nut jobs or the liberal pinkos as being the direct cause of the problems in the US as groups. I feel a large part of the problem is people not caring enough about what is important, and too much about what isn't important.

It certainly seems as though people are a LOT more concerned about what other people are doing, than what they are doing themselves. I'm sure Mr 5 0 will agree there is a dangerous nanny-government movement that is very popular in the younger generations, very much influenced by the liberal teachers union and educational circles. It's not the federal government's job to regulate hobbies because they might be dangerous to the hobbist. It's not the federal government's job to control the dispursement wealth or services. I don't need a ordinance telling me what color I can paint my house or how many stalls need to be in my garage or a law saying I can't jump the wake of another personal watercraft for that matter. It's nobody else's business. Even though I like the fact that our government does look out for people across the globe a little, if I want to feed the black hole for money in Africa to combat AIDS, I can do so with my own money. I don't need the federal government to increase their contributions on my behalf.

In the case of Cuba, you'll get no disagreement from me that Fidel Castro is an oppressive and generally evil dictator. Cuba's no worse than China for that matter. The fact they pointed nuclear weapons at the US apparently only concerns us because they were nearby. Tough rocks. China and Russia, probably even North Korea have nuclear weapons pointed at us too. John F. Kennedy was the worst US president in the last 100 years, if not the worst this country has ever seen. The reason I state that is his blatent disrespect for other countries nearly got us into a giant nuclear war, and the US invasion of Cuba by the CIA was irresponsible, and nothing more than flexing US muscle at a small island country to our south. I will concede that the Castro regime basically stole technology factories and land from US companies refusing to give it back, but a 50 year embargo? Quite frankly, it would seem as though Castro was well advised to point nuclear weapons at us since we tried to invade his country. Mr 5 0, you point out that our embargo of Cuba is nearly meaningless because everybody else trades with them. I think that speaks volumes in itself. Cuba is a global leader in pharmeceutical and other biotechnology. That biotechnology IS a threat to US pharmeceutical companies, and combined with the money US companies and wealthy political figures were out back in 1959 is 95% of the reason any US embargo. Neither am I grossly ignorant, nor am I lacking political understanding. There is definitely a mutual distain between the Cuban and US governments as there has been for over 45 years now. We just apparently have a very different view of why things turned out they way they did.

[Fat0eknee]

this is kind of off topic but ..mr 5 0 do you write for a living because i believe you could - nearly every post i see from you tears the thread down into little pieces and you write a book over it. im just amazed at that im sorry im stupid ill shut up now

[Mr 5 0]

Originally Posted by Fat0eknee

this is kind of off topic but ..mr 5 0 do you write for a living because i believe you could

No, I don't write for a living but if I could find someone who would pay me to write, I would consider the offer, especially if they paid by the word.

nearly every post i see from you tears the thread down into little pieces and you write a book over it. im just amazed at that im sorry im stupid ill shut up now

In reality, what looks like a very long post in word-count usually takes less than five minutes to actually read. Please note too that I am usually addressing complex issues in a serious way that requires more than a text message-type response.

[Mr 5 0]

Originally Posted by Unit 5302

Quite frankly, I think the Libertarians are nuts. According to their website, I'm more liberal than conservative and "Centrist." According to my political compass, I'm just about dead center. -0.75, 0.31 (liberal/conservative), (liberatarian/authoritarian), respectively. I'm apparently neutral-good in my alignment.

I must have confused you with another Unit 5302. Sorry.

The fact that democrats vote against republican bills or republicans vote against democrat bills has nothing to do with having different values or ideas. It simply confirms my ascertations. Democrats and republicans alike approved the invasion into Afghanistan. Gore would have done the same because the American people demanded it. It's nearly polictical suicide to go against such a movement.

Granted, but that's one issue and it hardly makes your case for shared values anf goals between the two major parties.

I agree, democrats would not have invaded Iraq because their leadership would not have wanted to invade. That's just it, though. Republican and democrat policies are simply handed down by a few in the leadership position, and the rest of the lackies get in line. I submit Norm Coleman MN, Ralph Hall TX, Rodney Alexander LA, Michael Decker NC, and Brad Ghormley TX. They're all representatives that have switched sides in the past few years. Most noting that they expected greater cooperation for doing so, and they're all party line followers. So they followed the democrat party lines one day, and the republican party lines the next.

That Democrats follow Democrat leaders and Republican follow Republican leaders is a no-brainer and certainly does not make your point. Political parties have defined agendas and an elected official follows the party position because he or she agrees with that agenda. Not because they are some sort of slaves to the party leader, as you claim.

That a few congressional represenatives switch parties is not indicitive of anything but a change in political values and beliefs. Some Republicans are 'moderate' to the point of being Democrats in all but name. Jim Jeffords of Vermont, a lifelong Republican who went 'Independent' in 2001, is a perfect example of that. Conversely, some Democrats are conservative to the point of being Republicans in all but name. Georgia's former Senator Zell Miller comes to mind. Republican President Ronald Reagan was once a Democrat. He went on to be a valued spokesman for the Republicans, California Governor for two terms and eventually, a successful and revered president. Well, to conservatives, anyway. Reagan always claimed that he didn't change, the Democrat party changed. He was probably right.

So while I indicated there is little difference between the two, it's more of at an individual level, but somewhat the same at a high level as well. Interestingly enough, abortion rights and homosexual issues do not concern me so they're mute points. Regarding economic issues, it's basically 2+3 = 5 vs 3+2 = 5. The republicans have a reputation for being staunch spenders, thrifty by comparision to their democrat counterparts. The republicans favor smaller government and lower taxes while democrats favor larger goverment and higher taxes (currently bordering on socialism). This administration has dramatically increased the size of government along with pushing through every spending bill they could. It's like a kid with a credit card, literally, as borrowing and increasing the national debt has hurt the value of our currency in the world. So, unfortunately, the differences between the parties seem very much to be religious issues.

Well, you're half right. While the Bush administration has thrown govermental fiscal responsibility out the proverbial window, to conservatives consernation, the Republicans are far and away more solid on national defense and have economic differences with Democrats beyond taxation, which include free trade. On cultural differences the Republicans and Democrats are, as you claimed, poles apart.

That being said, I'm not attacking any party any more or less than the others. There is no need to defend Bush, a particular party or any other cantidate to me. It doesn't matter anymore, anyway. What matters is next time. Like anything in life, you just do the best with what you have.

I'm a conservative first, a Republican second and I do not totally endorse the Bush administration with a blind eye. However, I do defend them as I see the need to do so. Here and elsewhere, as you know.

My comments about the conservative right doing all it can to seize power politically to further their religion onto others are correct. While Mr 5.0 may indicate there is a less sinister reason behind the growing movement (everybody pushing for what they want being natural), it does not lessen the impact on non-Christians. It may be worth noting that Christianity is not doing as well as some other religions in the US in regard to recruitment of new members, and I have to wonder if that's why it feels a little more like a Chinese finger trap. As power slips away, the tighter and more extreme the hold gets. One point. The churches and not the federal government need to determine who gets married as marriage is most definitely a religious ceremony. I think the God of Abraham made his position abundantly clear in the Holy Bible. If the church is truly following that word, then it shouldn't allow gay marriage. Quite frankly, I think the government should pull the tax emempt status of any "Christian" church that does allow it, unless that church comes up with a new religion they practice because it's obviously not Christianity. That's pretty much a different topic altogether, though.

Like many, you oppose what you perceive as unwanted Christian influence on society that you think is somehow dangerous to your rights...or something. That is a common but mistaken perception. Christian values and traditions are under assault and Christians are fighting back, making them much more visible. However, Christiany has no more chance of 'taking over' government or society than it ever had. No one wants a theocracy in America and we are about as far away from ever having one as it is possible for a nation to be. The 'concern' of some is simply unfounded and based on little more than the prevalence of vocal and visible Christians in the mainstream, like President Bush, and their subsequent demonization from the left, which some, unfortunately, buy into.

As for Christian church 'recruitment': the Christian fundamentalist churches are booming in membership growth while the old, 'mainline' churches such as Congregational, Methodist, etc are failing to attact new members. Most Christian observers lay that shrinkage to those churches decisions to adopt non-bibical positions and worry more about putting on a show Sunday mornings than preaching the 'meat' of the bible to a hungry audience.

It's probably unfair to single out the right wing nut jobs or the liberal pinkos as being the direct cause of the problems in the US as groups. I feel a large part of the problem is people not caring enough about what is important, and too much about what isn't important.

I agree, but the extremists always get the media attention.

It certainly seems as though people are a LOT more concerned about what other people are doing, than what they are doing themselves. I'm sure Mr 5 0 will agree there is a dangerous nanny-government movement that is very popular in the younger generations, very much influenced by the liberal teachers union and educational circles. It's not the federal government's job to regulate hobbies because they might be dangerous to the hobbist. It's not the federal government's job to control the dispursement wealth or services. I don't need a ordinance telling me what color I can paint my house or how many stalls need to be in my garage or a law saying I can't jump the wake of another personal watercraft for that matter. It's nobody else's business. Even though I like the fact that our government does look out for people across the globe a little, if I want to feed the black hole for money in Africa to combat AIDS, I can do so with my own money. I don't need the federal government to increase their contributions on my behalf.

Amen.

In the case of Cuba, you'll get no disagreement from me that Fidel Castro is an oppressive and generally evil dictator. Cuba's no worse than China for that matter. The fact they pointed nuclear weapons at the US apparently only concerns us because they were nearby. Tough rocks. China and Russia, probably even North Korea have nuclear weapons pointed at us too. John F. Kennedy was the worst US president in the last 100 years, if not the worst this country has ever seen. The reason I state that is his blatent disrespect for other countries nearly got us into a giant nuclear war, and the US invasion of Cuba by the CIA was irresponsible, and nothing more than flexing US muscle at a small island country to our south. I will concede that the Castro regime basically stole technology factories and land from US companies refusing to give it back, but a 50 year embargo? Quite frankly, it would seem as though Castro was well advised to point nuclear weapons at us since we tried to invade his country.

I disagree with that analysis but one of the stipulations that ended the Cuban missile crisis was an agreement from the U.S. that we would not invade Cuba. That agreement has held firm for 43 years and we are simply waiting for Castro (now 79) to die and see what kind of government takes his place. I'm not optimistic.

Mr 5 0, you point out that our embargo of Cuba is nearly meaningless because everybody else trades with them. I think that speaks volumes in itself. Cuba is a global leader in pharmeceutical and other biotechnology. That biotechnology IS a threat to US pharmeceutical companies, and combined with the money US companies and wealthy political figures were out back in 1959 is 95% of the reason any US embargo. Neither am I grossly ignorant, nor am I lacking political understanding. There is definitely a mutual distain between the Cuban and US governments as there has been for over 45 years now.

Cuba's communist stance, taken by Fidel Castro days after his overthrow of the corrupt Battista regime and in the middle of the Cold War is what has driven the 'mutual disdain' between the two nations. Whatever money U.S. interests lost 45 years ago is a dead issue, now. Cuba's pharmaceutical industry took off when they introduced Interferon to the global market and Cuba's advances and discoveries in pharmaceuticals are well known - but I disagree that this is the chief reason for the 45-year U.S. embargo. Castro is a hardline communist dictator who has been instrumental in bringing misery to his island and exporting terrorism around the world, specifically in Latin America. He has set himself up as an enemy of the United States and he relishes that position as he uses it to excuse his failures. For us to - through trade - help Castro increase his power and help his goals of revolution and chaos would be crazy as well as counter-productive. Dismissing the embargo as existing just because Castro "made some rich guys mad' 45 years ago is sophomoric reasoning, at best, and I regret that you resorted to it. The pharmaceutical argument is much better, if not convincing.

We just apparently have a very different view of why things turned out they way they did.

Yes, we certainly do, and I believe you and I have stated our respective opinions and positions clearly and cogently. I'll leave it at that.