Buying Domestic, Good or Bad

[RBatson]

I'm absolutely loving this thread! The whole matter of the fact is that the executives are making WAAAYYY too much and less attention is going towards the product(as with most US corporations). Well, that's conservative capitalism, isn't it. Whatever the market will bear, make as much as you can. Capitalism absolutely gives people motivation to work harder while giving others a license to steal. Its not right and could be the downfall of America. It's all about the profit, which is what I despise about the extreme right wing(giving everything I've worked so hard to obtain away to the lazy is what I despise about the extreme left wing). Let's be accountable for our products. I have a 2004 Ford and a 2002 Chevy sitting in my driveway right now.. Chevy gives better customer service, hands down. I don't even want to deal with Ford anymore, seriously. Their customer service is crap, total crap. They absolutely don't care about your problems while GM gives you a rental while your car is in the shop. This isn't just locally either, its everywhere I've taken my cars. The Mercury dealership(locally) is better than most though. I don't even want to talk about Dodge, though they have some vehicles that appeal to me.. I'll never own another Dodge.

I say put more attention towards the product and cut back on the excessive pay. While we're at it.. lets put more farmers to work and grow corn to make ethanol fuel. Why keep paying the outrageous prices for oil, we don't need it but... someone is making a dollar off it so let's capitalize on it! Right? WRONG! We don't need it! America has more natural gas than it knows what to do with yet we keep using oil... why?? SOMEONE IS MAKING A DOLLAR OFF OF IT! A car can run off of nature gas can't it.. YES! I say more ethanol, more solar, more wind. Heat houses with natural gas. We don't need all the oil we use but we keep using it.. WHY? Because someone(BUSH/CHENEY/SAUDI) is making a killing off of it. Absolutely ridiculous!(And some wonder why I despise the illiterate self serving president).

[Unit 5302]

I'm so tired of hearing GWB is the issue. A constant scapegoat for people that don't understand what they're talking about, "blame W" is the final reason why everything in this country is bad.

I'm not even going to dignify that catchphrase mentality with a more detailed response.

[RBatson]

I'm not blaming GWB for everything but to deny that he (and his sidekick) is the reason for the price of gas/oil shows your mentality and which side of the fence you stand on. If you want to applaud his Harvard education... damn, you hear the same speeches I hear. Standing there laughing at criticism because he doesn't know what else to do. What a joke.

[Rev]

Originally Posted by RBatson

If you want to applaud his Harvard education... What a joke.

Interesting thread. It always is when Kell, Jim, and Rick are involved. But I think GWB is an Eli (Yale) rather than Harvard. To illustrate my opinion on the cars, I'll just say that my family drives a 2000 ES300, 2004 Sequoia, and then there's my beloved 1966 Stang. As far as dependibility, comfort, and value go, I couldn't ask for more than the Jap cars deliver. As far as fun goes, I'll take my '66 Stang any day (even without radio, AC, and heat, LOL).

Rev

[RBatson]

Originally Posted by Rev

Interesting thread. It always is when Kell, Jim, and Rick are involved. But I think GWB is an Eli (Yale) rather than Harvard.

To tell you the truth, I really didn't know he didn't attend Harvard. I was just going on something Jim said a couple years ago where he said(or I thought he said) that Bush had a degree from Harvard and Yale. I may be mistaken but I do have a pretty good memory. Though I don't know what colleges he allegedly attended, his rehab and dwi do easily come to mind.

[Mr 5 0]

Originally Posted by RBatson

I'm not blaming GWB for everything but to deny that he (and his sidekick) is the reason for the price of gas/oil shows your mentality and which side of the fence you stand on.

Well Rick, conversely, to blame the President and Vice President of the United States for the price of gas and infer that they are part of some sinister conspiracy to keep the price high (for what...some sort of personal gain?) shows your clear lack of cognitive functions when it comes to Bush as well as a gross misunderstanding of both economics and politics. Thanks for making that clear for us.

If you want to applaud his Harvard education... damn, you hear the same speeches I hear. Standing there laughing at criticism because he doesn't know what else to do. What a joke.

George W. Bush has two degrees from Yale University. He is obviously inarticulate in many instances but that does not equate to a lack of intellect...it just makes it easy for his less-educated and lower-achieving detractors to mock him and feel superior even if they could never rise to the elected positions George W. Bush has.

As for President Bush 'laughing at criticism'....what would you have him do? Engage in shouting, name-calling arguments with reporters badgering him with accusations disguised as 'questions'? The president has to maintain a level of decorum others do not and all presidents laugh off criticism - because they have to.

[HoodStrype]

Originally Posted by Unit 5302

I'm so tired of hearing GWB is the issue. A constant scapegoat for people that don't understand what they're talking about, "blame W" is the final reason why everything in this country is bad.

I'm not even going to dignify that catchphrase mentality with a more detailed response.

100% agreed.

[Mr 5 0]

Originally Posted by RBatson

I'm absolutely loving this thread! The whole matter of the fact is that the executives are making WAAAYYY too much and less attention is going towards the product (as with most US corporations). Well, that's conservative capitalism, isn't it. Whatever the market will bear, make as much as you can. Capitalism absolutely gives people motivation to work harder while giving others a license to steal. Its not right and could be the downfall of America. It's all about the profit, which is what I despise about the extreme right wing(giving everything I've worked so hard to obtain away to the lazy is what I despise about the extreme left wing).

Oh please. Stop the Marxist nonsense, Rick.

Capitalism is the engine that has made America the world power it is and has been since WWII. It allows anyone to start a small business and with hard work and some luck, be financially successful. Almost every big corporation in America - from Ford to Microsoft - were started by an entrepreneur with just an idea and lots of ambition. Those entrepreneurs - from the guy who owns the local auto repair shop down the road to the millionaire factory owner - hire and pay other people looking for work and thus, make the economy grow, as ours has, in stark comparison with europe and other western nations that have foolishly embraced socialism. These entrepreneurs often start by borrowing money from banks to start their business. Money that they pay back with interest, just as people have always done. Even the bible mentions bankers..and they are not condemned. Meanwhile, wage-earners choose to work for their wages and I don't think that $60,000. per-year auto workers are all that deprived.

To mindlessly state, as you did, that 'capitalism could be the downfall of America' is beyond ridiculous and speaks to a profound lack of understanding of economics on your part. Grumbling about executive salaries is nothing new but it has little bearing on the financial woes of domestic automakers. While the six and seven-figure salaries of top auto execs may look bloated to the average person (you and me) , they simply mirror what other high-level execs get in other industries. I hardly think that the salaries, no matter how large, of a few dozen top-rank auto executives working in a multi-billion-dollar industry is the reason Ford and GM are sinking. As Kell and I have noted, the lack of quality in many U.S. automobiles and resulting sales drop-off is a large part of the reason for their slide in the market.

Let's be accountable for our products. I have a 2004 Ford and a 2002 Chevy sitting in my driveway right now.. Chevy gives better customer service, hands down. I don't even want to deal with Ford anymore, seriously. Their customer service is crap, total crap. They absolutely don't care about your problems while GM gives you a rental while your car is in the shop. This isn't just locally either, its everywhere I've taken my cars. The Mercury dealership(locally) is better than most though. I don't even want to talk about Dodge, though they have some vehicles that appeal to me.. I'll never own another Dodge.

Fair enough. However, Honda customer service - including the free use of a low milegae, 2005-model loaner car - is also excellent, as I outlined in an earlier post. Maybe GM is catching on.

I say put more attention towards the product and cut back on the excessive pay.

Would you include the 'excessive pay' of unionized factory workers, too? 'Excessive pay' is a relative term and can be used against anyone who you happen to think makes more money than you personally think they should make. In any case, if GM and/or Ford do go under (unlikely) all those highly paid executives will be out of a job, right along with everyone else in the company. Now there is equality of outcome for you, something liberals seem to love.

While we're at it.. lets put more farmers to work and grow corn to make ethanol fuel.

Ethanol, last I checked, had a net negative energy balance. It actually takes more fuel to create the ethanol than you get out in ethanol. With the government 'help' you seem to admire, it sounds like another welfare progarm for farmers, financed by the already over-burdened taxpayer. No thanks.

Why keep paying the outrageous prices for oil, we don't need it but... someone is making a dollar off it so let's capitalize on it! Right? WRONG! We don't need it! America has more natural gas than it knows what to do with yet we keep using oil... why?? SOMEONE IS MAKING A DOLLAR OFF OF IT! A car can run off of nature gas can't it.. YES! I say more ethanol, more solar, more wind. Heat houses with natural gas. We don't need all the oil we use but we keep using it.. WHY? Because someone(BUSH/CHENEY/SAUDI) is making a killing off of it. Absolutely ridiculous!(And some wonder why I despise the illiterate self serving president).

Geez, I feel like I just stumbled into a looney leftwing website or something. Bush/Cheney and the Saudi monarchy are part of some conspiracy to 'force' Americans to consume oil they 'don't need'? That is simply anti-Bush paranoia manifesting itself and is not connected to any kind of rationality. Where do you get this kind of rubbish?

Here's a clue: it's not just cars but homes, business and many kinds of machinery that are designed to run on oil or oil byproducts, as they have for over 100 years. They cannot be 'converted' overnight and the conversion costs would be huge, so no one is jumping into it without real proof that the so-called 'alternative fuels' are actually feasible in the long term. Solar? Wind power? How very PC....and how equally devoid of reality.

Your anti-capitalism, anti-business and trite anti-Bush hysteria demonstrates the Marxist, anti-capitalist mindset that apparently drives 'liberals' these days and it is not pretty to watch, as your uninformed rantings here prove. Grow up and get real.

[RBatson]

Unfortunately its been a tough week for me and I somehow allowed myself to fall asleep in the middle of replying to your well thought out post. I see you got alittle personal. A little body check never hurts.

Originally Posted by Mr 5 0

Capitalism is the engine that has made America the world power it is and has been since WWII. It allows anyone to start a small business and with hard work and some luck, be financially successful.

Actually, that's what I love about capitalism. I've been thinking of starting my own business for years and recently have gotten to the point, finacially, where I may be comfortable doing so.

Originally Posted by Mr 5 0

Almost every big corporation in America - from Ford to Microsoft - were started by an entrepreneur with just an idea and lots of ambition. Those entrepreneurs - from the guy who owns the local auto repair shop down the road to the millionaire factory owner - hire and pay other people looking for work and thus, make the economy grow, as ours has, in stark comparison with europe and other western nations that have foolishly embraced socialism. These entrepreneurs often start by borrowing money from banks to start their business. Money that they pay back with interest, just as people have always done. Even the bible mentions bankers..and they are not condemned.

We aren't talking about entrepreneurs, but I think you know that.

Originally Posted by Mr 5 0

Meanwhile, wage-earners choose to work for their wages and I don't think that $60,000. per-year auto workers are all that deprived.

Who said they were. Hell, Toyota is paying Americans close to that in their American plants. Who said that the auto workers were deprived? Why the shot at auto workers, you don't like auto workers?

Originally Posted by Mr 5 0

To mindlessly state, as you did, that 'capitalism could be the downfall of America' is beyond ridiculous and speaks to a profound lack of understanding of economics on your part.

Oh really?? Mindless you say. When America is run by a foreign power I'll try to remember that.. hopefully it won't be in our life time. With the outsourcing of our jobs, to foreign countries, I find less money remaining here. We have jobless Americans yet companies are shipping in workers from India. Bush is trying to reform foreign policy to give MILLIONS of ILLEGAL immigrants US citizenship. That's right, ship them in and sell them land. 3yr work permits for everyone. And no, I didn't like Clinton's Nafta ordeal either.

Originally Posted by Mr 5 0

Grumbling about executive salaries is nothing new but it has little bearing on the financial woes of domestic automakers. While the six and seven-figure salaries of top auto execs may look bloated to the average person (you and me) , they simply mirror what other high-level execs get in other industries.

Not in other countries though. American execs make alot more than than their foreign counterparts. Maybe that is why Japan is doing so well, more emphasis on the quality than the profit. On a side note, alot of other industy leaders compensate themselves alot better than the auto industry. Some of the theifs reward themselves while thier company is going under and I'm not talking about illegal activity such as Enron. I'm talking about companies that don't have enough capital to operate for another 6 months yet the execs get outrageous bonuses and stock options.

Originally Posted by Mr 5 0

Maybe GM is catching on.

I really like GM at this point. I like the F250 better but will probably buy GM for the service.

Originally Posted by Mr 5 0

Would you include the 'excessive pay' of unionized factory workers, too? 'Excessive pay' is a relative term and can be used against anyone who you happen to think makes more money than you personally think they should make.

Again, what do you have against the auto worker? I've never done the job so I have absolutely no idea what its worth. I have done my job for 18 yrs and its not a job most people would stick with.. I make good money(relatively) but I work for it. I don't think you could judge it from your lazyboy. I'd like for the average person to start out at 9am, run all day, and return at 1am and show up the next day. Those steaks smell good on the grill at 5:30 while many of us have many hours of work left..

Originally Posted by Mr 50

In any case, if GM and/or Ford do go under (unlikely) all those highly paid executives will be out of a job, right along with everyone else in the company. Now there is equality of outcome for you, something liberals seem to love

Well if you feel that strongly then maybe you should buy some of their stock, its relatively cheap at the moment. Ford is valued at only $15 Billion though it does have umm.. over $154 Billion in debt with less than $21 Billion in cash. They are showing net assets of $7 Billion but that counts all real estate and investments they hold. Hmm.. their market cap was between $50-60 Billion not 5 years ago. A turn around would present a huge return on your money. I don't see it in Ford's future though, maybe GM's. GM is doing something about it, just today they laid off a good number of execs. Not only that but their customer service is head and shoulders over Ford. I think GM is the safer bet and Ford is going to pull a USAir(Chapter 13). Hopefully they won't go into chapter 11, I'd hate to see Ford disappear.

Originally Posted by Mr 50

Ethanol, last I checked, had a net negative energy balance. It actually takes more fuel to create the ethanol than you get out in ethanol. With the government 'help' you seem to admire, it sounds like another welfare progarm for farmers, financed by the already over-burdened taxpayer. No thanks.

Yeah? Well you need to check again. Brazil is practically run off of ethanol. Hmm.. what you got against farmers? Welfare program? I guess you'd rather pay them to NOT grow crops, like we currently do.

Originally Posted by Mr 50

Geez, I feel like I just stumbled into a looney leftwing website or something. Bush/Cheney and the Saudi monarchy are part of some conspiracy to 'force' Americans to consume oil they 'don't need'? That is simply anti-Bush paranoia manifesting itself and is not connected to any kind of rationality. Where do you get this kind of rubbish?

Really Jim? Everytime I read one of your post, on this subject, I feel like I'm talking to a mushroom thats buried under a pile of crap. Wash it off brother and open your eyes. They both were in the oil industry and if you think they aren't making something off the price of fuel then your nuts. I call it Bush's retirement plan, I hope he gets impeached(he should be for lying to the US public). Even the Bush supporters at work say that the price of fuel(at the pump) doesn't reflect the price of oil.

Originally Posted by Mr 50

Here's a clue: it's not just cars but homes, business and many kinds of machinery that are designed to run on oil or oil byproducts, as they have for over 100 years. They cannot be 'converted' overnight and the conversion costs would be huge, so no one is jumping into it without real proof that the so-called 'alternative fuels' are actually feasible in the long term. Solar? Wind power? How very PC....and how equally devoid of reality.

WOW! "Devoid of reality"! Really?! Well, I don't know if you read the thread I started about me riding my Harley to Sturgis, it took me 3 days, Jim... 2033 miles. It was quite a ride but I had to stop and take a few pictures on the way. One of the stops I just had to make was in Minnesota. That's right next to South Dakota, Jim. Funny thing is that it gets terribly hot there(100 degrees), during the day in August but at night it gets cold(50s). Anyhow, I saw this and just had to take pictures and I thought of our conversation years ago. See the attachments.

Originally Posted by Mr 50

Your anti-capitalism, anti-business and trite anti-Bush hysteria demonstrates the Marxist, anti-capitalist mindset that apparently drives 'liberals' these days and it is not pretty to watch, as your uninformed rantings here prove. Grow up and get real.

I'm not anti-capitalism, defendly not anti-business but you are right.. The moment I saw GWB's first interview I knew he wasn't presidential material. I just don't like people taking advantage of their position.. "capitalizing on it". The system just needs to be tweeked. The price of an asprin in the hospital should reflect the price of an asprin in the local drug store. That's not what capitalism is about.. that's theivery.

[Mr 5 0]

Originally Posted by RBatson

Unfortunately its been a tough week for me and I somehow allowed myself to fall asleep in the middle of replying to your well thought out post. I see you got alittle personal. A little body check never hurts.

Well, Rick, I think you made some really boneheaded cooments about capitalism that required a strong response.

Actually, that's what I love about capitalism. I've been thinking of starting my own business for years and recently have gotten to the point, finacially, where I may be comfortable doing so.

Good. Yet, you casually label 'capitalism' as the possible 'downfall of America'. Can you even see the inherent dichotomy in that statement?

We aren't talking about entrepreneurs, but I think you know that.

Yes, we are. You obviously hold much resentment toward 'big business' but Rick, 'big business' is simply capitalism on a billion-dollar scale.

Who said they were. Hell, Toyota is paying Americans close to that in their American plants. Who said that the auto workers were deprived? Why the shot at auto workers, you don't like auto workers?

I guess those strikes they seem to have every few years is a demonstration of how happy the auto workers are.

Oh really?? Mindless you say. When America is run by a foreign power I'll try to remember that.. hopefully it won't be in our life time.

Pure hyperbole, Rick. Get real. Capitalism is hardly going to be the 'downfall of America', as you stated 'could' happen. Isolationist trade policies may look good but they do not work in the long run.

With the outsourcing of our jobs, to foreign countries, I find less money remaining here. We have jobless Americans yet companies are shipping in workers from India. Bush is trying to reform foreign policy to give MILLIONS of ILLEGAL immigrants US citizenship. That's right, ship them in and sell them land. 3yr work permits for everyone. And no, I didn't like Clinton's Nafta ordeal either

'Outsourcing' amounts to about 2% of the U.S. workforce and is only possible because of computer technology. The jobs outsourced are not high-wage jobs, either. I agree that the Bush plan to legalize millions of illegal immigrants is foolish and I oppose it, as do most conservatives, by the way.

Not in other countries though. American execs make alot more than than their foreign counterparts. Maybe that is why Japan is doing so well, more emphasis on the quality than the profit. On a side note, alot of other industy leaders compensate themselves alot better than the auto industry. Some of the theifs reward themselves while thier company is going under and I'm not talking about illegal activity such as Enron. I'm talking about companies that don't have enough capital to operate for another 6 months yet the execs get outrageous bonuses and stock options.

It's true that Japanese auto companies limit executive compensation but they operate in an entirely diffent social culture that is probably more moral than ours, at this point in time. We are not the same country we were 50 years ago, just richer and with better technology.

Yes, there are bad guys in the executive suites of American businesses but they are a minority. There are about 5 million corporations in the U.S., 16,000 of them with more than 500 employees and of course there will be the occasional corporate thief and dishonest executive - but they are a distinct minority. U.S. business, as a whole, could not survive if the majority of it's executives were all dishonest and making crap products.

I really like GM at this point. I like the F250 better but will probably buy GM for the service.

Your call.

Again, what do you have against the auto worker? I've never done the job so I have absolutely no idea what its worth. I have done my job for 18 yrs and its not a job most people would stick with.. I make good money(relatively) but I work for it. I don't think you could judge it from your lazyboy. I'd like for the average person to start out at 9am, run all day, and return at 1am and show up the next day. Those steaks smell good on the grill at 5:30 while many of us have many hours of work left.

Rick, once again, you are reading things into my comments that are not really there. Your penchant to want to engage in class warfare is a disappointment. In the case of the possible demise of some U.S. auto manufacturers, It isn't blue-collar versus white-collar, as you want to see the situation. I simply feel that when a major auto manufacture is failing, there is a lot of blame to go around. Some simply want to blame the 'suits', while some blame only the factory workers. I blame both - but as I have said...repeatedly...I don't believe that either executive pay or worker pay (and benefits) are the sole or even the major cause for Ford and GM's decline, just a factor.

Well if you feel that strongly then maybe you should buy some of their stock, its relatively cheap at the moment. Ford is valued at only $15 Billion though it does have umm.. over $154 Billion in debt with less than $21 Billion in cash. They are showing net assets of $7 Billion but that counts all real estate and investments they hold. Hmm.. their market cap was between $50-60 Billion not 5 years ago. A turn around would present a huge return on your money. I don't see it in Ford's future though, maybe GM's. GM is doing something about it, just today they laid off a good number of execs. Not only that but their customer service is head and shoulders over Ford. I think GM is the safer bet and Ford is going to pull a USAir(Chapter 13). Hopefully they won't go into chapter 11, I'd hate to see Ford disappear.

So would I - and thanks for economic update (I read the WSJ, too).

Yeah? Well you need to check again. Brazil is practically run off of ethanol. Hmm.. what you got against farmers? Welfare program? I guess you'd rather pay them to NOT grow crops, like we currently do.

Many U.S. farmers have been on the farm 'subsidy' dole for years - as you noted - and the ethanol scheme is just another political sop in the same vein meant to get the votes of 'big agriculture', who donate plenty to politicians - in both parties. Most farming today is done by big conglomerates. The 'family farm' is a quaint relic and the big farm operations of today do not need to be 'bailed out' with dubious fuel additive schemes, paid for by overburdened taxpayers.

Really Jim? Everytime I read one of your post, on this subject, I feel like I'm talking to a mushroom thats buried under a pile of crap. Wash it off brother and open your eyes. They both were in the oil industry and if you think they aren't making something off the price of fuel then your nuts. I call it Bush's retirement plan, I hope he gets impeached(he should be for lying to the US public). Even the Bush supporters at work say that the price of fuel(at the pump) doesn't reflect the price of oil.

Rick, that kind of rhetoric is simply far-left hysteria and not rational. Bush and Cheney were multi-millionaires long before they were elected to office in 2000. President Bush was born wealthy and is worth 26 million, today. His assets, like Cheney's, are in a blind trust that they have no access to while in office. The fact that they happened to be in the oil business at one time (but have been out of for years) doesn't automatically make them part of some sinister plot, as you foolishly claim. That is just loony, far-left hyperbole, again. There is simply not a scintilla of evidence for that reckless charge and you would do well to consider being able to actually come close to proving it, before so casually making it. You just look foolish.

President Bush certainly did not lie to the American people and at least 3 high-level, non-partisan investigations - including the '9/11 Commission' report made that crystal clear, in no uncertain terms. I guess you missed all that. Sorry, but you and the rest of the lefties that try to sell that canard by saying 'Bush lied' over and over will not make it magically be true. Your ridiculous contention that the Bush administration is part of some evil conspiracy to bilk the public in order to enrich themselves smacks of pure delusional paranoia on your part. How sad you choose to live with that kind of absurd fallacy as your rationale for resenting the twice-elected President of the United States. Get real.

WOW! "Devoid of reality"! Really?! Well, I don't know if you read the thread I started about me riding my Harley to Sturgis, it took me 3 days, Jim... 2033 miles. It was quite a ride but I had to stop and take a few pictures on the way. One of the stops I just had to make was in Minnesota. That's right next to South Dakota, Jim. Funny thing is that it gets terribly hot there(100 degrees), during the day in August but at night it gets cold(50s). Anyhow, I saw this and just had to take pictures and I thought of our conversation years ago. See the attachments.

A rather sharp diversion from the point, but thanks for the photos.

I'm not anti-capitalism, defendly not anti-business

Gee, you could have fooled me with the 'Capitalism could be the downfall of America' line. Were you just kidding?

but you are right.. The moment I saw GWB's first interview I knew he wasn't presidential material.

That's your opinion and you are welcome to it, for whatever good it does you. I and many other Americans disagree, including the 62 million Americans who voted for President Bush (over that intellectual giant, John F. Kerry) in 2004.

I just don't like people taking advantage of their position.. "capitalizing on it".

President Bush has not done so, even if you want to pretend that he has. Prove it and we'll talk, otherwise, you are simply smearing a good man for no real reason and with absolutely no evidence for what you claim.

The system just needs to be tweeked. The price of an asprin in the hospital should reflect the price of an asprin in the local drug store. That's not what capitalism is about.. that's theivery.

Overcharging is all-too common in hospitals because they lose a bundle on uninsured patients every year and in most places, they have to treat anyone who comes in. It stinks but that's the reality. Would you rather have hospitals turn people away who couldn't pay...or would you rather pay $3. for that asprin? There you have it.