simple solution to hijacking problem

[Mr 5 0]

65GTO:

I believe you misread my post or missed by point. I'll attempt to clarify my position.

I didn't say anything about unbreechable security doors to the flight deck. I agree that that could be done, although the weight could be a problem and it's not a solution in itself as you seemed to imply.

What I said was that a flight crew barricaded behind secure doors while crazed - and now angry and frustrated terrorists - start murdering passengers, one by one, or worse yet, having a big enough weapon to blow a hole in the side of the plane (or even a door or window out) would lead to instant depressurizing of the plane and then havoc and panic in the passenger compartment. A determined few terrorists could effectivly kill many of the passengers or render the plane unstable and posssibly unable to land safely.

As I said, this would result in a plane landing with an intact, unharmed flight crew and many dead passengers or possibly a wrecked plane. Not very feasible.
Add to that the fact that anything devised by man (like a secure door) is going to immediately have another group of men looking for ways to disable it, and they'll find it.

I agree that our airport security is lax and needs to be beefed up, quickly, but that won't totally solve the problem, although it won't do any harm, that's for sure. There is no quick, easy answer and no one is ever going to be totally 'secure' in the air or on the ground either, but we can try.

Our biggerst problem is our own attitude. We've grown weak and complacent as a nation. We elect boobs like Clinton to our esteemed Presidency and he makes a fool of both the congress and the American people and shreads the constitution in the process. Americans give him a high approval rating.

Our military is demoralized and feminized; the bars are lowered so any female can 'pass' any physical 'test'. We worry more about homosexuals being comfortable in the armed forces than about building strength, loyalty and encouraging a sense of duty and honor into our young men serving the country as soliders and sailors. Now, it's just a job. I expect we'll have a soldiers union any day now. Collective bargining.
Sure, there are still real stand-up guys in the service, but they don't stay long and the officers are so afraid of their careers being stalled - or worse - they swallow all the PC B.S. and watch the services dwindle down in manpower and resolve, not to mention quality. If we ever have to fight a real war, not some fly-over war or a war where the enemy are so demoralized they surrender to TV crews as in Desert Storm, I'm worried. I hope I'm wrong.

Notice that with all the hours of TV coverage of this tragedy, no one has said "People will die for this outrage". No one has the guts to do so. I don't mean the President or some high elected politician; they have to be measured and calm. What I refer to are the commentators and newspeople. TV is dominated by the female perspective. The men are male models, little more. Attractive little things that wag their tails and yip but have no bite. The newscasters always focus on the immediate tragedy (O.K.) but then act as if it happened as some isolated incident with no real connection to anything else...like the near-war in the mid-east going on right now.
It's report, grieve, wring our hands and then, move on. Oprah is on at 4. She'll tell us how to have a better life. Right.
No real outrage shown..don't want to excite anyone. Grief councilors, etc are fine and needed, but where is the real sense of anger and resolve on TV. Not from those blow-dried women and men. No context either. It's sickening, and this is where America gets it's news....and often, it's attitudes.

As I've said in earlier posts; it's a war.
To Islamic extremists - and there are many - we are the enemy because we support (finance) Israel and always have. Without the U.S., Israel would have been destroyed decades ago.
These extremists see Israel as a rougue state, an illigimate country, an interloper. They want it destroyed and the Jews dead or at least, gone forever from the mid-east.
That will not happen and we will not stand by and allow it to happen. Of that I'm sure.

During the unending 'peace' talks last year, Barak gave Arafat the sun and the moon - everything Arafat said he wanted - and Arafat said "no". There will be no 'peace'. You can't negotiate with someone who wants to kill you - right now. The Arab Islamic extremists want to kill us - right now. We'll have to decide if we will smile and try to not think too much about it, or if we will fight back. That means blood on our hands and accusations of being murderers and worse from the liberal bleeding hearts who sympathize with the Palestinians and the extremists who plot to kill us in our offices and our markets, as they do in Israel every week. Can we deal with that? I wonder.

I don't expect 'Perky' Katy Coric or Diane Sawyer to tell us the truth and to show outrage over this massive attack on our country. No. Lots of sympathy for the victims, which is fine, but next week it'll be some story about how Bush didn't handle it right and how maybe we should cosy up to those folks who killed our relatives, friends and neighbors and show them 'we care'. Maybe then those Arabs will stop being mean to us. Please.

It's a tough situation. We took a very big hit and we look like pathetic fools for allowing this to happen. Now, we have to decide how to respond. I fear it may be all talk. Tough talk, but still just talk, with no action. I hope not. I hope we can do more than discuss how we can lock ourselves into flight cabins so the bad men won't get us and how strong a door we need to feel safe. That may be necessary for the moment, but I find it rather sad for the future.

As Ben Franklin once said; "Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither".

[dinomite]

someone up there said that if someone was trying to hijack the plane, you don't let them, I agree with that totally, especially if the hijackers only have knives. I can tell you, that if I were on one of those flights, I personaly would have attacked them myself, and if all the passengers on the plane had (50 odd) they would have beat down the 4 so attackers. people have told me that the hijackers were intimidating the passengers/crew, which is bull. If that is the case, Americans are too wussy; they should have retaliated against their attackers.

Also, a good way to prevent terrorism is to arm/train the crew. they have talked about putting Marshals on the flights from now on.

[This message has been edited by Mr 5 0 (edited 09-12-2001).]

Europe are on YOUR side! It´s not a Country it must a organisation and Bin Ladin is the name we(Carl Bildt) talking about in sweden.

My english is to bad for the right words after this...We are atleast 300 000 000 people in europe on your side.

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Mustang GT -87 14,61/95,59.
This june Richmond 4:10 and I love this gear...

[Mach 1]

Mr 5.0 - I have served in the military in this country in one status or another for 15 years. I can assure that we have nothing to worry about in a "real war". I have eye-witnessed first hand the weapons we have available to us in action.

We have so many military resources and different weapons available to us, that it is almost mind boggling.

We accomplish a "fly over" war as you put it because we can. Some of our nations best and most advanced aircraft wernt even used in Desert storm because they didnt need them.

Even if by chance the Air Force couldnt gain air superiority (which would never happen in the first place), the US Army has massive amounts of firepower available.

I witnessed in person a few weeks ago a bomber drop a unguided 500 pound piece of concrete(practice bomb) from 20,000 feet in high winds and hit a small truck on the target field dead center. Our allies to the north couldnt hit the same truck flying dead on, low altitude in american built FA-18 fighters.

How many countries can move thousands and thousands of troops and equipment anywhere in the world on a moments notice? I would guess none besides us.

Who knows, maybe Im wrong, but I really dont think we have anything to worry about in a real war.

Its the enemy that hides in the shadows (terrorists) that are tough to fight, as we all just saw.

God Bless America

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1993 GT/AOD
'93 Mustang GT

[Unit 5302]

How hard is it to take out two armed police officers with a couple terrorists carrying box knifes? Pretty fin hard. It's not even how hard it would be, it's the the deterrance factor. Police work much better as a deterrant than interrupting crimes.

So Mr 5.0, you would argue barracading the doors and having the passengers fend for themselves is a bad idea? A few thousand people who died at the World Trade Center might disagree with you. You want people to fight back? They have to have a reason and be cornered. Like if they know the pilot can't help them or give the terrorists what they want. I would have beat the damn terrorists till they quit moving. It was rumored they had mace, I don't care, spray me with it, you're next box cutter boy!!!! Hurting me would only piss me off more. If the people on board that flight would have rushed the terrorists would it have been considered a victory to Bin Laden? In that case what would have been the passenger count? 2-3? If they had succeeded in killing every passenger on board those flights and nothing else, would it have been a victory? Hell no. Years of planning, training,resources, and funding went into this.

[90'5.0 Conv]

Personally, I don't see how any of this will eliminate terrorist from public aircraft. You need to realize that these people are very determined and wil find any vulnerabilities in anything we do. It is really unfortunate but also inevitible. If they couldn't do this, they would find another way to get our attention. Remember, these people don't care about there own lives, much less ours.
There is always a risk involved with being the super power of the world but the nice thing is that we can determine what happens now!
God Bless all of the people and families involved. It is times like this that we see just how stong AMERICA is.

[Mr 5 0]

Unit:

It's fine to talk about how tough you would be if you were on a hijacked plane and the hijackers had nothing more than small knives and box cutters. I'm sure you would do exactly as you say you would. Good.

The problem is that you are only one guy and I get the feeling that many of the passengers on those flights were middle-aged businessmen and women. They were not as tough or as brave as you are. They obviously were not going to attack two or three (probably) young, nasty-looking, screaming arabs waving knives in their face. They were not going to risk watching some young flight attendant have her throat slashed open and watch her life blood pour out on the floor because they made a move toward a hijacker. Ain't gonna happen - in most cases. Many were making cell-phone calls to loved ones, according to relatives. Shows you the mindset...no hope.

Understand that 99% of non-military men and women have never had an encounter with a real physical threat in their entire lives.
They have no idea how to react, they freeze or just wet their pants and very few people are black belts or as fearless as you are.

Under the circumstances we face now armed guards on all flights is probably a good idea and I never said otherwise, except to mention that it's expensive and that's why the airlines quietly stopped doing it many years ago.

Look, if you want to have a bullet-proof, inpenetrable cockpit door on every plane, fine. However, if you do that and the pilot is unavailable - no matter what, you must - must - have armed 'Sky Marshals' on every single airline flight in the United States every hour of every day. No easy, not cheap.
If you don't do that, passengers being 'on their own' should trouble occur is absurd.
Very few men - much less women - are going to board a plane knowing that if a terrorist pulls any kind of weapon you're probably dead because there is no one to help you and the pilot can't be reached behind his bullet-proof cockpit door and he ain't comin' out. That might deter 'serious' hijackers but not crazies who just want to kill someone.

Now, all that may very well happen (impenetrable cockpit doors/Sky Marshals on every single flight 24/7) and that's fine with me. I just believe that all this macho talk about 'taking out' any terrorists that would dare to show up on any plane you are on is natural, understandable, possibly true but basically just that; talk. No practical application for most people in the real world.


Mach I:

My remarks on the military are not based on personal knowledge, just casual observation via the media during past skirmishes and wars and comments I've read made by active duty military men on other (political) messageboards I visit. They are not as confident as you seem to be, but then, that may depend on where you serve, what branch and what type of work you do in the service.

As you must know, the military has been somewhat feminized and certainly downsized over the past decade. This is not good.
I trust our military will rise to the occasion if the need arises (and it will) but I'm a bit skeptical about overall capability, However, I defer to your personal knowledge of the military readiness and morale. Of course, I also pray that you are correct.

[RAGE_5.0]

Hey mach 1
why do u insult canada's army????
wow we don't have state of the art jets or any **** like that but i do know we have some of the best soldiers in the world
u can look back at certain battles in the world wars.....there is a reason why we were nicknamed the crazy canucks
read up on vimy ridge and u will find out why
I'm sorry but our country has better things to spend money on then jets, ships and smart bombs.......the biggest example is tyhe free health care,and from driving in michigan i would sya we spend a lot more money keeping the roads in good condition

I am sorry if i pissed anyone off but i don';t think that u should make comments like that considerinbg we will be the first country to go to war with u americans


JAMES

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Black 1990 gt cobra bonestock
not for long

[Stangin 88]

Since I am in the U.S. Marine Corps I find this web site very fitting:
http://elcochino6.tripod.com/laden.htm

We WILL get them!

[Old Guy with 87 GT]

you can do all you want to prevent somone from ever flying a friggen plane in a biulding,but all that will stop is somone from flying a ******* plane into a building....you won't stop peaple from thinking up other ways to assult us in horrible ways.....your dealing with human nature....we have the biggest badest millitary but that don't mean sht against human nature......this guy only proved that a few guy's with knives and some flight training can deal a solid blow to the biggest badest country in the world......human beings are smart creatures and it don't matter how big are millatary is .....we need to use our brains and find a practical way to deter more attacks.....what ever happend to the day's of america being the guy who walked softly but carry'ed a big stick......what we've become is a big idiot that carry's a huge club........we got this huge millitary but if we don't know where and how to use it then it don't do us any good....we have brains ,we need to use them.....i love this country and i think that those who caused what has happend should not go unpunished.....but not by swinging around our "huge club" blindly....but by finding a way to punish those who do this sort of thing in a way that will show the world what they really are ......if we just kill the men who caused this we will only make them marters in the eye's of those who believe in what they are standing for ......then there will be more that follow them ....and humans are smart, no matter how much protection we have on planes....our enemy's will only find another way to hurt us.........our reputation as an untouchable nation is no longer......we can punish the peaple who did this,we should punish the peaple who did this ......but the real challenge is to make our enemy's not wan't to attack us.and the only way to do that is to"earn" our enemy's "respect" ,not our enemy's fear or hatred

my 2 cents....

james

It's very easy to "arm chair qb" on Monday morning! Could've, should've, would've.....it's easy to say how tough we are and what we would've done, but the fact is none of us know exactly how any of those people on those flights felt, one could only imagine scared out of their minds, wondering if they'd live another day to see/speak to their family and friends again. It's a given: airport security must be improved, air marshalls on all flights should be a standard, and impentrable cockpit doors should be installed on all planes. If the terrorists knew they couldn't get into th cockpits, there'd be no sense in killing stewardess' or other passengers, cause they'd just have armed soldiers waiting for them on the ground when they landed. Granted that would only stop hijackings, but it'd be a step in the right direction.

[1965GTO]

You are correct mr 50 when you brought up bill clintin our worhtless expresident who did not believe in following the law and is partly to blame for these events. All we can do now is move forward though and it is time to stop talking and start bombing. I don't know if our present president knows what needs to be done but if he does he needs to do it fast before a bunch of morons start coming up with alternatives that won't bring justice.I started this thread talking about stopping one new problem by making it impossible to get to an aircrew while in flight and it must be done. But i realize they will think of other ways to do harm. We just have to make them realize that it will cost them more than they are willing to lose.

[rwhite65]

mr. 5.o in your very, very long replies...you have said one thing that is extremely accurate...our nation as a whole has become very, very non confrontational.
People in a whole do not like to fight, I see this every day.

I would like to defend some of my ideas, which have been distorted by some.

let me say first...this is only a solutions to problems in the air...If I had the answers to terrorism in any form....I would not be doing what I do for a living...and would make much, much more money than I do.

The idea of a "bullet" proof door or whatever anyone wants to call it is not all that hard to make a reality. The weight...so we do not carry 200 pass. now, only 180. Now their luggage is not on the plane, even less weight.

The idea that if they can get to the cockpit, the pilot can some how bargain for tpass. lives is wishfull thinking. Yes peopole will die in the pass compartment because the pilot will not open the door. Somebody said that the pilots can not save the pass. lives. Last I knew the pilot does fly the plane. WHen the #### hits the fan, the plane can now be brought down by the person who can do it safely. The pass will most likely die in this situation. But if the pilot remains in control of the plane, some may live, and the plane does not become a missile. The arabs become pissed and kill all pass. on the plane with box cutters before it lands, unlikely.

I never said ARMED guards. MAybe I did not clarify this, but I was getting at plain clothed MArshals...gaurds....whatever. I carry a gun every day, but I am not sure I would want it in the plane....anybody familiar with what is called a bean bag gun?? This is an option....very effective. OR no guns at all, just trained professionals that are randomly placed throughout the plane...would be a step in the right direction.

Somome said we need to gain their respect....I wish that could happen....but I think most will agree that you can not make everyone happy. This is demonstrated in this forum right now.

You can not please everyone...and when the U.S. is a sbig as we are, some will always hate us.

[Mach 1]

Unit-
These trained terrorists are sneaky. It would be simple to walk past a guard on an aircraft and slice his throat. If case you havent flown lately, aircraft are not very rooky, and im sure the guard is not going to be sitting there with his weapon drawn all the time. They will become complacent, and would be easy victims.
This is not hard to see.

Rage 50 - I wasnt dissing your army, I think you misunderstood me. I was just commenting on our military, and I just saw a recent exercise in person, and I was Impressed with what a certain bomber we have was able to do.

At the same exercise, there were Canadien Forces Pilots flying f-18a's that were missing the target on an easier angle of attack. It wasnt a rip on you or your fine C.F.'s , just a comment to put things in perspective. I like Canada, you guys do it right up there.

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1993 GT/AOD
'93 Mustang GT

[347MOM]

I totally agree with what Badass says,"No one knows what those passengers were thinking or feeling at the time." I want to say something,"On one of planes they did retaliate against the terrorist and made the plane crash and miss their target,so I dont think that all americans are wussy's."


347's '91 BLOWN AND STROKED DARK GREEN CONV. MUSTANG

Girls can too's August "Mare of the Month"

[This message has been edited by 347MOM (edited 09-13-2001).]

[This message has been edited by 347MOM (edited 09-13-2001).]

[This message has been edited by 347MOM (edited 09-13-2001).]

[Topless In Texas]

Originally posted by Mr 5 0:

65GTO:
Our military is demoralized and feminized; the bars are lowered so any female can 'pass' any physical 'test'.

What I refer to are the commentators and newspeople. TV is dominated by the female perspective.

I don't expect 'Perky' Katy Coric or Diane Sawyer to tell us the truth and to show outrage over this massive attack on our country.

Okay, IMO..and with the UTMOST RESPECT 5.0(Really, I mean that!):

Why is it everything negative said here is female related? Define Feminized?(why put demoralized and feminized in the same sentence?) and keep in mind, just cause were female, dont mean we all think alike! We're not all wussys, and that DOES NOT mean we're Dykes either! Get my a$$ on T.V. and I"ll tell them what I think,IMO of corse!!!

Some of us women, given the chance would love to go kick some arab a$$.(most likely they will be smaller than us anyways!!) they just carry more artillery!!

Most of you might not be aware of this cause you dont frequent Female Power, but, MustangMom2K's husband was IN THE PENTAGON WORKING when that plane hit. She knew nothing for hours, and I knew nothing till late that evening whether he was alive or dead. Although we have never met personally,(of corse, we were supposed to this WEEKEND for the poker run, that is all up in the air now!) I feel like I HAVE BEEN PERSONALLY VIOLATED!(Cant imagine how MOM must have felt at the time, it's unconcievable.) At first we were just grief stricken over the destruction of the WTC,the loss of innocent lives and the intrusion of the Pentagon, which holds the utmost sectretive information of our Armed forces (which I feel has been downplayed) but now we are PISSED!!! I wish you guys could've been in on our IM conversation tonight!. (me,MOM & 347) As far as I'm concerned, we shouldn't compare the weaknesses to the 'female' gender. We feel as strongly as you do, we just look a little different physically!!(I hope so!) and again, this is my opinion only.

Just speaking for myself, AND meant w/ no disrespect to you, I dont feel its necessary to put a 'feminine' label on everything negagative. I'm not a feminist, by any means,(Yu will NEVER SEE ME burning my bra), but there are those of us unusual women that not only have a passion for cars, but for our country and feel the same way most of you guys do! So, In all due respect, we might cannnot bench press what you can, but that does not make our feelings any less intense, or any more whimpy than ya'lls...
And as for you Bada$$.....TWO THUMBS UP!!! I agree w/ you COMPLETELY!!!!!! I've walked thru the security at Hobby airport a number of times the last couple of months setting off thier security alarms EVERY TIME w/ my silver jewlery. But yet...we have people that look suspicious(or could be) and they walk thru security w/ plastic knives!!!!! WHATS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE???? If they need to frisk everyone walking thru security then so be it. Obviously the metal detectors wont pick up stuff like that. To me its inconcievable that not only do we allow a highjacker to take over an aircraft, but 4 w/in ONE HOURS TIME?????? Someone had some good friends on the inside. So, for what its worth, 5.0, I'm not trying to piss yu off, just want you to know that some of feel as strongly as you do on this subject, and myself, dont feel like the women are always the weakest. Who Knows?? There might have been a woman or 2 on that airline in PA. that whooped some *** b4 it went down!! I hope so, and I know I speak for me, MOM and 347, if we were there, we would not have gone down w/ out a fight, if it would have spared innocent lives.

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1994 GT CONVERTIBLE
TOPLESS IN TEXAS Girls can too's July "Mare of the Month"

Performance Red. Cold Air Ind.,K&N,H.P. Pulleys,OffRoad H-Pipe,Subframe Connectors,Flows,3.55,Light bar,Custom HeadRests.Lotta Chrome

[Mr 5 0]

Topless:

I assumed that any female reading my comments might be offended or at least annoyed.
I feel that I've used the term 'feminized' appropriately. I understand that others may disagree. Isn't America great?

Under the Clinton administration the armed services had most of the training norms brought down to whatever levels the female recruits could obtain, in most cases.
That's a fact and I don't find it a good thing for our armed services. Too much emphasis on attitudes, 'feelings' and PC nonsense that has little place in a fighting force. I've been in touch with many dedicated career military men who have decided to get out of the service after ten or more years because they don't like what it's become and the fear of saying 'the wrong thing' to a female soldier and being court-martialed or losing his chance at promotion. I call it military feminization.

It's an altering of the military in order to accomodate female soldiers and that is fine - to a point - but when a male soldier cannot depend on the female soldier next to him in a time of battle, that is dangerous and foolish. Not everything in war is pushing buttons, even in 2001. When a male soldier is afraid of saying 'the wrong thing' to a female soldier, that is awkward at best and makes serving with females a PITA, in my view.
These opinions come from online and actual conversations I've had with members of the armed forces. Basically, they say that everything changed when females came into the regular military and it's gone all downhill.
This is a result of the top brass bending over backward to please and accomodate females coming into the service and 'make them feel comfortable'. That, again, is fine - but when the physical differences are oblitered and ignored in order to let females 'pass', that isn't good for morale or future fighting these young women may have to face.


As for the female TV commentators; they tend to focus on the softer side of the tragedy, which I don't mind, but they never seem to addresss the context and many still act as if a plane crashed accidentally. They avoid the nitty gritty of the situation and so do most of the male TV newsreaders. I feel the TV newsrooms are feminized in order to attract women to watch TV news, which is understandable, but it also waters down the content.

Not that TV news is very good to begin with. I think it has a distinct liberal slant no matter who is giving it, but 'stars' like Perky Katie Coric really annoy me with their slant on the liberal view and the lack of real knowledge of many of the things she 'reports' on. Too much touchy-feeley for me.

I don't mean to be harsh, sexist or start a flame war, as I know that generalizing about gender or race or anything else is risky and offers the opportunity to annoy others and give the wrong impression. I accept that risk, as my history here on MW is one of welcoming and celebrating all of our female members. I applaud the women who buy, mod, tune and race Mustangs. You are very special ladies and you are now and have always been appreicated here.

My comments and somewhat negative views in prior posts address a general 'feminization' (as I see it) in the military and in the media. They do not pertain to any specific person (except Ms. Coric) and certainly not our Mustang ladies. You guys are the best.

My complaint is not about 'women' in general (I'm married to a very lovely, intelligent and capable woman) but about the military over-compensating to make women 'fit' in the armed forces instead of making the women fit the military a bit better. That's backwards.

The news commentators are less important, and many are quite competent as well as attractive, but the 'female' slant I see I find objectionable. I expect that if actual war broke out, many of them would be against it. Then again, maybe not.

It's just my observation, not an attack on womenhood, so please don't misunderstand my remarks on the subject. I appreciate yours.

[Unit 5302]

It's too bad the news is such a biased politically motivated bunch of crap.

They were calling Bush a shitty leader and a bad president and a coward because they got him off the ground right away and didn't fly him directly to the White House. They didn't care about the risks, just a political agenda.

As far as letting women into the military as soldiers that can't make the real cut, I think it's a joke. If you can't make it, you can't make it. There shouldn't be anybody crying about it, begging to change the rules.

[andy669]

I got an idea (you guys will love this! not.) How 'bout the next time we see a f'in raghead get on an airplane, we f'in shoot them!! Hey rwhite, I agree with you!! I dont give a sh!t about political correctness!! Thats half the reason we are in this situation. I've never been prejudiced against blacks or mexicans, but these ragheads must hang!! They have one agenda, defending their religion! They have been around for centuries and look how they live! They ride camels in the freaking desert! The United States is barely over 200 years old, and look how advanced we are. The number one killer in the world is RELIGION!!
All f'in ragheads must f'in hang!
andy

thats my opinion guys (somebody please tell me im wrong, i hope i am)

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3 Black 94 GT Vert. AODE/TKO conversion, 3:73's, ported X-305's, GT40 manifolds, 75mm TB, 30lbers, PMS, 300 horse Top Gun wet kit, and all the other little stuff

[Vector]

Originally posted by Mach 1:

I witnessed in person a few weeks ago a bomber drop a unguided 500 pound piece of concrete(practice bomb) from 20,000 feet in high winds and hit a small truck on the target field dead center. Our allies to the north couldnt hit the same truck flying dead on, low altitude in american built FA-18 fighters.

Thanks for that unfriendly stab at our nations pride. What's the point of that demoralization attempt at Canada? To bolster your own bruised pride? You should very well know how much more superior Canada is in compared to you in terms of air to air ability, having won many many competitions. But theres no reason to point any of this out, we as part of NATO are here to help you, not compete against you.