© Copyright 1995 thru 2008 - The Mustang Works™. All Rights Reserved.
MustangWorks.com is designed and hosted by Aero3 Media.
MustangWorks.com is designed and hosted by Aero3 Media.
09-23-2004, 11:58 AM | #41 |
Ride Hard
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Wyoming IL
Posts: 1,094
|
sorry. I somehow double posted..and it wont let me delete it.
__________________
65 Fastback 91 roller 306, H/C/I AOD-Bauman, PI Stallion, 4.10's and traction loc 04 Grand Cherokee Freedom Edition 79 Ford F-250 4x4 - Restored |
09-23-2004, 02:41 PM | #42 | |
Conservative Individualist
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Wherever I need to be
Posts: 7,487
|
Re: Tired:
Originally posted by CupCake :
Quote:
I hesitate to say it, but: get used to it. The American education system tends to focus on things like slavery (officially and legally ended in 1863) - 141 years - 7 generations- ago)and other negative aspects of Americas history and the media (TV and newspapers, especially) always focus on 'bad news' and especially during a Republican administration. Thus, we have young people growing up to believe that America is somehow a bad place and that we are a racist , oppressive nation. Absurd? Of course...but this is what is taught in too many public schools and the university today. The folks who promote this false and negative point of view are generally called the 'Blame America First' crowd. Whatever happens, it's somehow America's (or President Bush's) 'fault'. We're too 'arrogant', too rich, use too many resources, and so on. That this is usually nonsense is obvious to many of us but a lot of Americans (too many) buy into it and thus you'll see this kind of 'it's all America's fault-type' messages on boards such as this one, where general topics are discussed. Sad, isn't it? It's natural to want to see your country improve and of course a nation as large as America wil always have some problems to deal with but the complaining and general negativity some people go on about is far beyond the reality of America, today. That you - as an immigrant - can clearly see this and are honestly annoyed, if not offended by those who bad-mouth their own nation is heartening. I applaud your honesty and ability to tell those who whine about America that they are quite wrong and clearly unappreciative of what they so freely take as their due - and then demand more and complain when they think they've found some 'faults' in the most free and clearly the most powerful economic system in the world today. Like you, I deeply appreciate the freedoms and opportunity America offers to all. Like you, I get annoyed at the whiners and complainers who see nothing but negatives in the best country on earth. Unlike you, I was born and have lived all my life in this country (with a few trips out of it on vacations) and I'm very proud of my nation and am pleased to be able to share it's benefits and freedoms with you and millions of other immigrants who have made this nation great because they appreciated it and took advantage of it's freedoms and opportunities, Cup Cake. Keep up that great attitude of yours and never let the grumblers and complainers change your mind.
__________________
5.0 Mustang Owner 1990 - 2005 |
|
09-23-2004, 03:37 PM | #43 |
Registered Member
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: Houston, Tx.
Posts: 3,887
|
Testimony
The very fact that we can disagree with American policy is testimony to the freedom and liberties that we enjoy as Americans. We can complain and yes even "whine" about governmental actions, whenever we see the need, and in any public forum, without fear of retribution (theoretically) from governmental agencies. Many times this criticism of the American government reaches such proportions that changes are made in governmental policy without even being put to a vote or without an election to "throw the so-and-so's out".
Criticisms often catch the ear of our elected representitives, who usually have their ear to the ground so to speak, and and are always looking towards the next election. Complaints do make a difference in future policies long before any election takes place. Don't ever let anyone tell you that you have no right to complain or speak out against governmental policy. You do have that constitutionally guaranteed right, and it can make a difference in how business is conducted by the USA. Rev
__________________
'66 Coupe, 306, 350-375 HP, C-4, 13.07 e.t., 104.8 mph, 1/4 mi. O.B.C. #2 '66 coupe Last edited by Rev; 09-23-2004 at 04:00 PM.. |
09-23-2004, 04:58 PM | #44 |
Conservative Individualist
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Wherever I need to be
Posts: 7,487
|
A fine line between dissent and disrespect
I seriously doubt that it's anyone exercising their First Amendment right that CupCake objects to. I would assume that it's the more generalized America-bashing that we sometimes see on the internet, and MW is no exception.
Real change in government policies does often originate from the bottom up but the simple-minded whining about how 'awful' America is because of this or that is simply ridiculous in many cases and I can see why an immigrant like CupCake, grateful to be in America and enjoying our bounty, views it as unseemly. So do I.
__________________
5.0 Mustang Owner 1990 - 2005 |
09-23-2004, 05:08 PM | #45 | |
Registered Member
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: Houston, Tx.
Posts: 3,887
|
Re: A fine line between dissent and disrespect
Quote:
Rev
__________________
'66 Coupe, 306, 350-375 HP, C-4, 13.07 e.t., 104.8 mph, 1/4 mi. O.B.C. #2 '66 coupe Last edited by Rev; 09-23-2004 at 07:43 PM.. |
|
09-23-2004, 07:55 PM | #46 |
Conservative Individualist
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Wherever I need to be
Posts: 7,487
|
The difference between dissent and disrespect
Opinions and attitudes toward our government will always differ in a nation of over 290 million diverse people. It's the barely hidden contempt some people (not meaning you, Rev) have for their country that I often find alarming and disgusting.
We can all disagree on politicians and policies, as we often do, but when it comes to 'America' being slammed as 'imperialist', 'racist', 'oppressive' and other absurd denigrations I see so casually spewed on internet messageboards, that is offensive as well as stupid. To an immigrant like CupCake, who has actually lived with true (not theoretical) oppression, poverty and other experiences virtually unknown in America, seeing comfortable, totally free middle-class people saying such things about the freest and most prosperous nation on the planet, a nation that is their mother country, as it were, must just seem crazy. I couldn't blame her. In some circles, trashing America has somehow become 'patriotic' and praising America the mark of the fool...in their view. Free-thinkers like this lose me. Intellectual-wannabes that are too smart to think, in my opinion. I don't subscribe to the concept that America can not be improved. That should be a given. It's the definition of what constitutes 'improvement' that is the base of the conflict between those who love and appreciate their country and those who,, too often, consider themselves 'citizens of the world', see honest patriotism as xenophobia or a 'cover' for suspected sinister intentions and think it's 'patriotic' to slander America. We can easily dispute the specific policies and programns of any administration and politicians are always flawed, easily dissected and often found wanting in some area. That is democracy at work and the 'complaining and whining' can be useful, in some - but not all - cases. I'll never tell someone not to complain about any aspect of governmentt even if I disagree. That makes for healthy discussion, as you noted earlier. It's the sneering dismissal and denigration of America as a free country, founded on great moral and legal principles and still growing and evolving today that offends both 'Cup Cake' and folks like me. I'm offended by the left's almost maniacal focus on things like slavery and the destruction of Native Americans, all a part of our history, to be sure, but too often overdrawn and wrongly used to call America an 'oppressor' and other inane names while ignoring the unprecedented opportunities this great nation offers. Our national success is sometimes seen as the exploitation of people and resources instead of a model of the efficiency of capitalism, the free market and the native ambition and hard work of millions and millions of Americans, mostly all immigrants at some point in the past and even today. It would be foolish to ignore dark parts of our national history or to refuse to deal with mistakes and misjudgements made decades, sometimes centuries ago. America is not 'perfect' and no one believes that it is. However, on balance, 'America' - and all that name includes - is the best the world can offer to anyone today, warts and all. I am proud of my country and glad to welcome others like 'CupCake' into it. That she deeply appreciates our nation and all it offers both personally and financially is a refreshing change from spoiled Americans trashing their own country and believing that doing so is somehow both 'patriotic' and sophisticated instead of being merely ungrateful and willfully blind to reality and the world around them. I've had a bellyful of that attitude. I would hope others have , too. I applaud CupCake and her positive attitude here. She'll make a fine American.
__________________
5.0 Mustang Owner 1990 - 2005 |
09-23-2004, 09:22 PM | #47 | |
Registered Member
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Georgia
Posts: 3,866
|
Re: The difference between dissent and disrespect
Quote:
Not everybody who diagrees with what happens in politics is "ungrateful and willfully blind to reality and the world around them". I think even you have gone to far this time. |
|
09-23-2004, 10:42 PM | #48 |
Registered Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Wilmington, NC
Posts: 5
|
I saw a funny bumper sticker on a Honda with a fartpipe.
It said "War is not the answer." I pulled up next to the little twit, and glanced over. He revved his little engine. I smirked and said, "We're at WAR with TERRORISM. If war isn't the answer, I guess in your eyes terrorism must be the next best option?" And then he was owned. I've learned you cannot discuss politics with librals. You state the facts to prove their stance is meaningless... They reply with "well, I feel..." Conversation over. You can't argue facts with feelings. End of rant. Just my 2 bits.
__________________
That little 'H' on your hood stands for "Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha", right? |
09-24-2004, 02:10 PM | #49 | |||
Conservative Individualist
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Wherever I need to be
Posts: 7,487
|
Re: Re: The difference between dissent and disrespect
Originally posted by Mach 1 :
Quote:
Unfortunately, I encounter many people who seem to either be indoctrinated with leftist dogmas that are based on the perceived 'evils' of America ('rampant consumerism' is just one of many) or claim to be disgusted with their own country - according to them - yet somehow always control their disgust well enough to enjoy every benefit America can provide, as I never fail to remind them. When challenged on their assertations and conclusions they often are defensive and claim that it's actually 'patriotic' to trash America and they 'just want to make it a better nation' and are 'not afraid to see it's faults'. They do seem far less able to see it's attributes and apparenty are loath to mention them, if they do. The liberal's (who trash America) stated desire to 'improve' America is fraught with ambiguous meanings and I'm sure every despot and oppressive government in the world made a similar claim at one time. I am instinctively wary of those who, (a) can't seem to find much good to say about their own country and, (b) always seem to want to 'fix it' with some socialist, utopian set of schemes that must have sounded great in a politics bull session back in college but that is usually just a re-hash of failed socialist concepts that ignore the humanity and the normal yearnings of the very people such schemes purport to benefit. Quote:
As I stipulated: as a people, we can and will always disagree on specifics and certain politicians or policies but I find that most anti-American types (not counting Canadians or The French who are hardwired to hate America) see mostly 'problems' instead of opportunities in America and that seriously think calling the president names and being vocally anti-war is somehow a sophisticated political posture and claiming to want to make America 'better' by making it more socialistic is 'patriotic'. Quote:
__________________
5.0 Mustang Owner 1990 - 2005 |
|||
09-24-2004, 05:27 PM | #50 |
Registered Member
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Georgia
Posts: 3,866
|
You are way more interested, informed, and passionate about politics than I am or care to be. You make valid points, and I do not wish to debate this subject. Just seems like you dont see any good at all to the "liberal" viewpoint, and I think they have some good points as well.
Too bad we cant find a happy medium for everybody. |
09-24-2004, 05:54 PM | #51 |
Registered Member
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: Houston, Tx.
Posts: 3,887
|
Honest opinions
I think a person should put forth his honest opinions and ideas as he sees fit (within legal and ethical limits). I don't really see a need for one to bash someone else's opinion to foster his own. If one's ideas are superior to someone else's, I believe the reading public will see that almost immediately.
Rev
__________________
'66 Coupe, 306, 350-375 HP, C-4, 13.07 e.t., 104.8 mph, 1/4 mi. O.B.C. #2 '66 coupe |
09-25-2004, 01:09 PM | #52 | |
Conservative Individualist
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Wherever I need to be
Posts: 7,487
|
The Great Political Divide
Originally posted by Mach 1
Quote:
From abortion-on-demand to ever-higher taxes to restricting our freedoms with failed policies such as gun control to the destruction of our once-fine public school system with PC nonsense and other major errors. From the transformation of our college campuses from places of learning and exploration of ideas into liberal indoctrination centers where nothing but leftist dogma is tolerated, to the corsening of our popular culture and the resulting disrespect for our country, it's flag and it's people: it is my studied opinion that 'liberalism' (leftism, really) has done harm to this country. Conservatism and liberalism are on two sides of an enormous divide (think of the Grand Canyon) and as they are basically opposed to each other's philosophy and ideology, there can be no 'happy medium'. You cannot mix oil and water and have a resulting 'happy medium' liquid that is not half one and half the other. They don't mix. Neither do liberal and conservative political ideology and philosophy. Hence, I remain a conservative and will oppose liberal political ideas whenever I find them and have the time to do so. Thus it ever was.
__________________
5.0 Mustang Owner 1990 - 2005 |
|
09-25-2004, 01:23 PM | #53 | |
Conservative Individualist
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Wherever I need to be
Posts: 7,487
|
Re: Honest opinions
Originally posted by Rev :
Quote:
Most internet messageboards that deal with politics also are debating forums. While I can postulate a 'conservative' position without bashing liberalism in the process the 'liberal' response will be to attack my position and substitute the opposite position in it's place, in most cases. Conversely, if I wish to dispute a liberal position I have no choice but to point our it's error and explain why this is wrong and/or won't work. To some, any opposition to what they believe, politically, is 'bashing'. In addition, to successfully contend against another's political position, one is almost required to use negative words and even ridicule to make one's point in a manner that will resonate with others. My experience debating politics on internet forums is that it's not English Gentlemen quietly sipping tea while exchanging pleasantries but a rather rough arena where mockery and ridicule is rampant and even when absent, hard words often are exchanged by advocates and little concern is given to decorum, within the usual loose messageboard guidelines that preclude personal attacks. Even then, things can get ugly, as this thread has shown. "Bashing' seems to be a relative term and while I don't always need to 'bash' to make a point, in a debate, it's generally necessay to pick apart the opponents argument. We do what is necessary.
__________________
5.0 Mustang Owner 1990 - 2005 |
|
09-25-2004, 05:22 PM | #54 | |
Registered Member
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: Houston, Tx.
Posts: 3,887
|
Re: Re: Honest opinions
Quote:
I do still feel that it really isn't necessary to be very venomous in defending conservative or liberal views. IMHO, the value of these specific views pretty much speak for themselves. I do also understand that those who endure personal attacks because of their conservative or liberal views may also have a tendency to lash out at perceived "liberal" or "conservative" enemies". Rev
__________________
'66 Coupe, 306, 350-375 HP, C-4, 13.07 e.t., 104.8 mph, 1/4 mi. O.B.C. #2 '66 coupe Last edited by Rev; 09-25-2004 at 06:53 PM.. |
|
09-29-2004, 02:31 AM | #55 |
Smokes The Dope
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Eldorado, Illinois
Posts: 144
|
my 2 cents
I am not a total wiz on the government, but I am thankful for every freedom I have. Sure never will everybody agree on what the government does.
One of the only things I really disagree with is the Justice system. Why is it that sex offenders and drugs dealers get off as easy as they do. I live in the meth capital of Illinois. People get busted in my town for manufacturing and other heavy drug charges and within a year they're back on the streets. It just doesnt seem right. Public schools is another thing. I just recently graduated high school and I'm currently attending a local junior college. I have came to the conclusion that most teachers in the K-12 range are just baby sitters. There are only a few of my former teachers I have respect for. About 75% of the time we were just given busy work so we weren't bothering the teacher. Anyway back to the freedom part, I love having the choice of going on to college instead of having to go work in a factory making peanuts like in other dictatorship, communist and 3rd world countries. A lot of people don't realize their freedoms because most of us Americans are spoiled. Face it we are. Mr 50, I respect your knowledge and point of views. I agree with you on the Bible being incorrect due to translation and such, but I am a firm believer in God and Jesus. Everyone has a plan they don't know about. Another way I look at sitting aroung arguing about something on the internet isn't really going to solve anything. I agree about immigration being a bad issue but could you imagine being in one of these immigrants shoes. I know I wouldn't want to live in China, Ethiopia, Russia, Cuba or any of these countries within dictatorship. It's the immigrants that come to our country to do nothing other for terrorist purposes that are the ones to give the bootin to. Maybe if everyone got a taste of other country's freedoms they would change their minds on being disrespectful towards America. Well thats all I got to say about that. -Nathan |
09-29-2004, 02:28 PM | #56 | |||||||||
Conservative Individualist
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Wherever I need to be
Posts: 7,487
|
Re: my 2 cents
Originally posted by nastyn8:
Quote:
Quote:
A combination of prison overcrowding, too-liberal judges who seem to believe that drug use is a 'victimless crime' plus the fact that a lot of drug crimes are plea - bargained down to far less serious offenses all adds up to drug criminals getting away with far too much. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The fact that you've been reading the posts in this thread, have considered them and have your own opinions on some of the issues raised that compelled you to post simply proves my point. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Please post again.
__________________
5.0 Mustang Owner 1990 - 2005 |
|||||||||
09-29-2004, 04:34 PM | #57 |
I got something to say
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,557
|
My problem with government today is that really all politicians are pretty much the same. You can take Bush and Kerry for instance. Bush is a Republican, holds the Christian beliefs that Republicans typically do, however his administration spends more than the typical republican administration and has a much larger government than most conservatives are in favor of. Then there is Kerry. Despite his issues of a horribloe voting record and never having a true backbone to him he doesnt exactly hold up to your typical Democrat for the working class. I mean what member of the working class has 4-5 homes and goes windsurfing off of nantucket?
I am a moderate republican with many libertarian views. I am fiscally conservative and I dont feel the government has any right in saying which sex's can marry and who can or cant get an abortion. However it really sickens me to see both parties are pretty much growing closer and closer to being the same. Thats also another reason why I hate the two party system. Im not sure who im going to vote for. I dont like Bush but I hate Kerry even more. I may end up voting Libertarian even though I dont agree with all of thier views either.
__________________
91 LX Hatch 5.0 - made for the twisties 89 LX Hatchback 5.0 5spd. stolen/stripped 4/7/05 http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/...splay.cgi?3494 1987 Toyota Pickup Ricer Haters Club Member #33 Want a custom gauge cluster for your Vintage Mustang? www.jmeenterprises.com |
09-29-2004, 05:22 PM | #58 | ||
Conservative Individualist
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Wherever I need to be
Posts: 7,487
|
The Art of Compromise
Originally posted by MidNiteBlu 5.0 :
Quote:
The Bush administration has produced high government spending and expansion, which conservatives oppose on principle. However, almost every conservative I know will vote for Bush because he is far, far closer to conservative ideals than Kerry could ever be, which is pretty obvious. Quote:
To claim that both parties are 'the same' (or close to it) is incorrect. Do you truly believe that a Democrat president such as Al Gore would have responded to 9/11 the way President Bush did? Immediately going on offense? That a Democrat president would have asked for and gotten big tax cuts, as Bush did? These are major, major issues and the difference between Democrats and Republicans today is wide - and stark. That you take the Libertarian view on abortion and same-sex marriage is not uncommon. However, these issues are minor compared to the overriding issue of the war on terrorism and to a lesser extent, the economy, which Bush's tax cuts helped improve and recover from the 2000-2001 recession. I would think long and hard before voting Libertarian. This is a critical election and while even I, a conservative, don't agree with everything Bush has done, I fully appreciate what he has done in the war on terror and the economy and I cannot even consider the thought of a John Kerry in charge of this nation's defenses. Not for a moment. Remember, the only politician who will ever have the exact same views as you do is the guy looking back at you in the mirror every morning. Bush isn't perfect but he's done a good job under difficult circumstances and in my view, deserves to be re-elected.
__________________
5.0 Mustang Owner 1990 - 2005 |
||
09-30-2004, 01:33 AM | #59 |
Smokes The Dope
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Eldorado, Illinois
Posts: 144
|
MR 50 what is your opinion on Ralph Nadar and the Green party?
I was told that they were against coal mining and a lot of other industry, also that they were responsible for emissions laws and trying to do away with the big block engines. When the last election was up a bunch of the dopers at my school were talking about that if Ralph Nadar was to get elected as president he was going to legalize marijuana. Can you imagine what chaos that would cause. Later |
09-30-2004, 09:06 AM | #60 |
YOU HAVE NO MARBLES!!!!!!
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Jonesboro,Georgia,USA (Providence, Ri)
Posts: 868
|
As far as i am concerned a vote for Either Bush or Kerry is a waste and would be me chosing the lesser of two evils. I have been doing some research on the libertarian party and like what they have to say. I am voting libertarian this year. Screw the other two.
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Government isnt the only corrupt one | smokediver27 | Blue Oval Lounge | 0 | 09-11-2004 04:36 PM |
Only in England (how to make an 8 a 10) | The Deuce | Blue Oval Lounge | 28 | 08-21-2002 02:57 AM |
Do Not Street Race At Port Kells!!! | BowTie Eater 5 Liter | Blue Oval Lounge | 48 | 04-11-2002 03:07 AM |
ENRON: Got what they deserved. | PKRWUD | Blue Oval Lounge | 17 | 01-27-2002 06:05 PM |
What would you do if every little secret the Government had was leaked to the public? | bigwhitecobra | Blue Oval Lounge | 18 | 12-01-2001 11:42 PM |