Total timing vs initial timing for max HP.

[Dark_5.0]

My 90LX is ready fror some track time. I normaly run the timing at 12 degrees initial cause I have a superchip.

Alot of guys are running like 38 degrees of total timing with the spout connector removed and they say that the car runs better that way cause the ECU's timing tables suck.

Can I run total timing with the spout connector removed with the superchip? By removing the spout connector I am taking away the ECU's ability to control the timing right?

If anyone has positive or negative experience running an EFI 5.0 HO with total timing I would love to here it. Every little bit counts.

Thanks,

[fiveohpatrol]

You are also removing the superchip's ability to control timing as well.

I have been meaning to try total timing at the track, but haven't gotten around to it yet.
I think 38 may be a little high. I think I remember someone telling me that anything beyond 34 and it will have a hard time starting, or not start at all.

I'll let ya know how it goes whenever I get around to trying it

[PKRWUD]

Yeah, yanking the spout defeats the chip. Anyway, daily driving it that way is very bad, and the info I have SEEN claims there are no gains at all below 4000 rpms, and in fact the power is lower below 4000 roms. Minor gains should be found above that, though.

From personal, first hand experience? I dunno, I'd never do that to a vehicle I owned.

I know you wouldn't leave it like that for the drive home, though, so take a 7/16" distributor wrench, a timing light, and be our guinea pig. How long could it take you to pull the spout and change the timing? This would be an ideal test, too, because the weather and track conditions aren't likely to change very much between runs.

If you try this, make it a point to let me know how it did. I'm always looking for information from a reliable source. lol.



Take care,
~Chris

[fiveohpatrol]

so take a 7/16" distributor wrench

and a 1/2" one too cause thats what you'll need

[PKRWUD]

thank you. It was a very long day yesterday. lol



Take care,
~Chris

[Murdock]

Let me throw a wrench in the works here. How about total advance timing?

This is your timing with the spout in and the engine above 3000 rpm. I personally never pull the spout, I always check timing at total advance. The highest I would take this is 36 degrees.

What octane fuel are you running?

Murdock

[Dark_5.0]

Originally posted by Murdock
Let me throw a wrench in the works here. How about total advance timing?

This is your timing with the spout in and the engine above 3000 rpm. I personally never pull the spout, I always check timing at total advance. The highest I would take this is 36 degrees.

What octane fuel are you running?

Murdock

When I try the total timing I will be running 100 octane sunoco racing fuel.

I will run 36 degrees of total timing and see what happens.

I am just trying to hit a high 12 by any means necessary.

With my luck i will probably run a 13 flat or a 13.1

Later,

[cleanLX]

Originally posted by PKRWUD
Anyway, daily driving it that way is very bad, and the info I have SEEN claims there are no gains at all below 4000 rpms, and in fact the power is lower below 4000 roms. Minor gains should be found above that, though.

Tell me why it's bad.
The gains are below 4000, not above, someone misled you.
I'll be heading to the track Saturday, I'll let you know how it goes, but, I can tell you that on the street, I have much more tq below 4000...

That is all I know.

[red82gt]

With G-tech testing (I know, ultrareliable )and my relatively low compression ratio, my car had the best mph with 39* of total timing with 94 octane gas. As soon as the track opens I'll try a couple of different settings but last year a back to back with 34* to 36* gained me a full mph on a run with a quicker 60' time and all my runs after that were a mph higher than the 34* ones so that suggests that I definitely gained some. The timing window for a 5.0L with less than 9.5:1 is about 34*to 40* and every car seems to like something different than the next.

[MEDIK418]

Since you folks brought it up, I have to ask. Total timing vs. static timing. What is the degree of advance past static for a 5.0? I have been trying to run between 12 and 16 degrees static advance but what does this get me in total advance? Also, is this something I can check with a timing light or is it a calculated setting?
Thanks for any help you can provide.

[fiveohpatrol]

The amount of timing advance is different for the different computers used in the 5.0L mustang. Pulling the spout out gets rid of the computers ability to control timing, so this is why you set your timing at total with the spout out, and leave it out.

[302man]

5ohpatrol is right, every computers advance is different as well as their total timing. There are a few basic rules of thumb that people look at. One is WOT timing. The EEC adds 15-16 degrees of timing to the base timing. So if base is 10 degrees plus the EEC of 16 , total advance during WOT should be about 25-26 degrees. There are certain EEC's out there with more aggressive timing/fuel maps in their. Most people get the A9L or A9P. I had the oppertuninty to see the timing MAP of a A9L at WOT. From what I could see, the EEC doesn't put in all the 16 degrees at WOT. It waits to about 3000 rpm until its all in. So thats where the spout out, high base timing helps. It will give you more power due to higher timing in the curve. If you run a chip and remove the spout, you are only effecting the timing and timng only. The fuel maps, if changed, will still work fine.

[cleanLX]

density altitude today was 2650... (12.9 run was d/a 1600)
car ran 4 pass's, all 13.0x's @ high 102's low 103's
60's are still off, driver is leaving too soft... lack of seat time recently...

With low 1.7 60's rather than mid/high 1.7's, and with better air, it has low/mid 12.8's in it for certian.

Total timing works in theory at this point, but still no time slip to talk about... just theory and excuses...

[srv1]

i thought the computer also gets information for the fuel curve from the distributor? i dont really understand why you want to pull the spout and run just from that. i really dont believe when you pull the spout you are just effecting timing also. the computer generates pulse width from other sensors and from the distributor firing. If the computer does add an additional 16 degrees at WOT, why not just set the distributor at 16(total of roughly 32) or higher and let it go from there? Does the computer start throwing in the timing only at 3000 grand and up? How do you know? I would assume your wouldnt benefit off the line with the spout disconnected unless you are launching at a very high RPM. Besides, you would have to keep those RPM's up to achieve the power you would want to keep your total timing effective. I cant see how 32 degrees of timing would help at 1500-3000 RPM's. But if it works, i would be stumped

Also, i have not seen anyone mention the heat range of the plugs either.

James

[302man]

SRV1, the spout connector does timing and timing only. It has nothing to do with fuel or fuel maps, The beneffits of using high base timing without a spout are you no longer have to rely on the EEC to change the timing. The EEC will change the timing if it sees it as too hot/cold . Its very hard to be consistant when racing when the EEC moves around due to temp conditions. Also, if you leave the spout in and have total WOT advance at 32 degrees, it would take a little over 3000 rpm to be at 32 degrees. If you launched your car at 2000 rpm, would you want 24 degrees or 32 degrees ? I would want 32 degrees for better low end and better 60ft times (traction permitting). We just had a huge discussion on the corral about this same subject. I will find it and bring the link over here for you guys to see.

This is a free mod. If it don't work for you, simply put it back where it was before. Every car is different, some might work, some might not. I ran my old S trim car this way and it worked great, loved it. I had to abandon it due to the quest for nines.

[302man]

read this thread. We are talking mostly about superchargers, but the idea is still the same.

http://www.corral.net/forums/showthr...hreadid=257283

[cleanLX]

You've made some good points.

If the computer gets fuel info from the dist., than that would explain my milage. I've gone from 19mpg city, to 17mpg city. I figured it was the warmer weather and the switch to aerated gas that we are blessed with here in Phoenix durring the warmer months.

To get 60' in the low 1.7's on stock suspension and with stock HP is requiring dumping the clutch at 5000+rpms. If I were running street tires the total timing would make getting out of the hole very difficult with the add'd response/tq down low.
On street tires (not dr's) the car would break the tires loose at the top of second with 15* initial and spout in, but now with spout out and 36*, I can break them loose in second at any time with just a stab of the gas.

I'm not certian, but I 'thought' the computer add as much as 16*, but it was dependant on a host of things not just throttle position, and, depending on what the computer is reading, you may not get the full 16*. I 'thought' that it would add as miuch as 16*, but that it came on in incraments with rpm.

The heat thing is an interesting point as well. On the street the car runs a very small amount warmer, stock guages, so I don't know what the numbers are, just that it's slightly higher now. I've not experienced any detonation on the street or at the track however. I should note, that I don't drive hard on the street, the odd romp, but my street driving would be more akin to Jessie, than Luke or Bo (all of the Duke family).

I think I'll be throwing the spout back in for daily driving duties, and leaving the total timing for the track, see if the temps drop back a little and if my mileage goes back up.

I'm defintaly pulling it at the track... to run 6/100ths off my best time, with worse 60's and worse air conditions, it is definatly a track trick...

That's all.

[cleanLX]

302man...
you type faster than me... both your responses came while I was 2 finger tappin'.

[tmoss]

For those of you who have not seen a EEC timing table, I attached one to this thread. I believe 302man's method of setting up a blown engine with the BTM is a good idea for "spirited" driving. You'll see the table and it's modifiers for driving at less than wide open throttle (WOT) and then at the bottom is the table used for WOT. Keep in mind that this table reflects timing added ABOVE base timing as the computer can only add to the base setting. This is ONE A9L table and if you have one, this may not be your exact table as they do vary from car-to-car and year-to-year.

Notice that timing can actually get well beyond 30* and that is why 302man's suggestion works as well as it does. At WOT the EEC is trying to add timing at the same time the BTM is trying to pull timing. Even in a naturally aspirated car, it's good to pull some timing as rpm increases to maximum and then add it back as rpm falls to keep torque as close to peak as possible.

[302man]

Tmoss, can you send me that info ? That is great stuff and its hard to find. I would like to hold onto it if possible.



BTW, do you know HRSPLAY or Cuda ? They are from over there.