10 sec nitrous engine combo, OPINIONS ?

jonathan · 04-05-2001, 06:16 PM

Before reading further keep in mind this is a car which will be trailer'd to the track with occasional (1-2 times epr month) short street cruises.
Combo :
306
trw power forged with large valve reliefs 10.5:1 compression pistons
balanced rotating assembly, main girdle, SFI spec fluid filled balancer etc.
TFS TW street heat heads port matched to
TF R intake
1.6 roller rockers
NOS bigshot system with custom fab'd plate injector for TFS R intake. 200 - 300 hp jetting
Custom ground cam meant for nitrous and track use for hydrolic lifters,

I dont intend on reving much passed 6000rpm
I have the fuel requirements (a bit overkill actually) with a fuel cell, product engineering pump, groundpounder rails, big lines and everything else.

I dont have the specs on the cam yet as it hasnt been ground (waiting for next paycheck as I just shelled out cash for a TCI AOD tranny). I figure since im using a plate injector with a big shot of nitrous the tfs r lower will be the best as it has big straight runners, Im going to have the block decked slightly which should put compression maybe up to 11.5:1
also on the nitrous I plan to run c16 gas.
Can anyone give me the pro's and con's on this setup ? Also I will be in talks most liekly with insky(sp?) cams, can someone recomend some good specs ont he cam to start with ?

------------------
Jonathan Cole
Silver 89 Notchback
12.404 @ 109 with 60 shot
FRPP 3.73:1 Gears
B&M Ripper Shifter

juiceman · 04-05-2001, 10:00 PM

the setup seems good assuming youre using good rods. the pistons are ok but trw pistons are slugs. theyre big and heavy. also, for the amount of power your looking for that tci aod is not likely to hold up for long. you would have been better off with a good c-4 in both the strength and power dept. and you would have saved money. as for a cam your best bet is to talk it over with the cam company of your choice.

jonathan · 04-05-2001, 11:04 PM

Well, the rods and crank are stock but balanced, I'll put money down saying they hold up just fine for this season (completly new engine combo for next year, as the rest of the car has been built for 8's)I agree that the pistons are heavy and large, but I believe they're strong and I traded em brand new for a used t-rex, couldnt pass that up as they retail for $600 here. The streetfighter AOD I believe is a little on the weak side but not by much, I agree the c4 would be stronger and a better performer but this street fighter was custom built with better clutches, hey, and I got it for $1000 canadian, thats what ? $550 american ? all i need is a tranny blanket, shifter and converter. Besides, im so used to broken clutches and flywheels I have no problem with taking out the tranny, spending $200 on new bands and then throwing it back in every 3 months.

------------------
Jonathan Cole
Silver 89 Notchback
12.404 @ 109 with 60 shot
FRPP 3.73:1 Gears
B&M Ripper Shifter

MiracleMax · 04-06-2001, 01:03 AM

Stock block? Hmmmm probably won't last long?

Whats your race weight?

IMO, anything approaching 550 crankshaft HP is stressing a factory 5.0 block pretty good.

Anyway good luck!

MiracleMax · 04-06-2001, 01:08 AM

Actually that is a rather vague gauge of the upper limits in terms of power.

A better way would be to say how much cylinder pressure can it take before my wallet gets lighter.

ie; 500 pounds of cylinder pressure and 100 hp is alot to handle, Harder than 500 hp and 100 pounds of cylinder pressure.

This is just a rather extreme example and is no way a true life scenario. Just here to illustrate a point.

jonnyk · 04-06-2001, 02:27 PM

If you're not revving beyond 6000, I'd consider the Track Heat intake instead of the R. The R is designed to rev much higher than that and will kill your bottom end torque...

------------------
1991 LX Hatch 5.0L

jonathan · 04-06-2001, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jonnyk:
The R is designed to rev much higher than that and will kill your bottom end torque...

I half agree, I believe it will hurt performance slightly n/a, but I believe with wet nitrous system with a plate injector you'll want the biggest smoothers ports possible (within reason) because I dont want fuel pooling up in the intake. also the easier the n2o gets into the cylinder the better.

juiceman · 04-07-2001, 04:36 PM

it seems to me that although you asked for the pros and cons of your setup you dont really want to be told anything. the intake as far as nitrous goes really doesnt have as much as an affect as you thing. nitrous is a gas and provides an atmostphere in itself so therefore you dont need the best biggest flowing intake for it. the real idea is to build the egine so that it makes power n/a before you use the juice.
look, you may make it a season with those stock rods and block but dont wonder why if it doesnt make it. the fact that your not going to rev it past 6000 isnt exactly the fix to the problem. especially since you want to add big parts with little revs. it just doesnt work. good luck with it though.

jonathan · 04-08-2001, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by juiceman:
it seems to me that although you asked for the pros and cons of your setup you dont really want to be told

If I didnt want the cons i wouldnt have asked. I wanted the big lower intake to avoid fuel starvation/pooling. Just because im debating points doesnt mean I am disagreeing, im just furthering my discussion, personally i think it will be a very good combo. I'll make sure to keep everyone informed. I seem to be building a combo that all the magazines hate, big nitrous, stock block, short runner intake.

------------------
Jonathan Cole
Silver 89 Notchback
12.404 @ 109 with 60 shot
FRPP 3.73:1 Gears
B&M Ripper Shifter

juiceman · 04-08-2001, 09:53 PM

fuel starvation/ pooling is not a problem with fuel injection setups. it happens on carb setups cause the fuel comes in the plenum area and slams into the intake floor, then get dragged down the intake ports. fuel injection ports are straight so this will not happen. so the idea of pooling gas in a injected system is not going to happen.
and even if it did happen, how would you be able to tell?

Moxie · 04-08-2001, 11:41 PM

He was referring to the common misconception that a wet nitrous system will automatically cause fuel puddling in the upper intake. I won't get into that debate right now, but with a plate between the upper and lower, you can't have puddling anyway.

As long as the parts don't break, you're on the right track. With the hydraulic lifters, you won't be able to rev too far past 6000 rpm, so be sure to specify that to the cam company. Basically, you can look at the NMRA Renegade cars as a guideline, only slightly more moderate.

The short runner intake will work with the n2o pretty well. Also, nitrous offers a lot of mid-range torque, so that will make up for the low-mid torque lost with the TFS R.

Isky is a great choice, by the way. I have worked with them before, and they have never steered me wrong. Have them recommend matching valvesprings while you're at it. They make the best valvesprings in the business.

If you need a source for a nitrous plate, let me know. All I need is a gasket as a template.

------------------
Moxie Racing

The Nitrous Oxide Information Site

juiceman · 04-09-2001, 06:54 PM

moxy, i know what myth he was refering to thats why i said it doesnt happen with fuel injected cars. as far as the intake goes, its not a proper setup. you do not get an intake thats made to work past 6000 and only use it to 6000 then figure the juice will make up for the lost power. since juice gives alot of torque and h.p. it is best used when the motor makes power on its own.
the proper setup would be long runners that breath well to give the motor torque and power to 6000 then hit it with juice and double the power. not use the juice to get the car moving then hope the motor catches up.

04-05-2001, 06:16 PM	#1
jonathan Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Surrey, BC, Canada Posts: 36	10 sec nitrous engine combo, OPINIONS ? Before reading further keep in mind this is a car which will be trailer'd to the track with occasional (1-2 times epr month) short street cruises. Combo : 306 trw power forged with large valve reliefs 10.5:1 compression pistons balanced rotating assembly, main girdle, SFI spec fluid filled balancer etc. TFS TW street heat heads port matched to TF R intake 1.6 roller rockers NOS bigshot system with custom fab'd plate injector for TFS R intake. 200 - 300 hp jetting Custom ground cam meant for nitrous and track use for hydrolic lifters, I dont intend on reving much passed 6000rpm I have the fuel requirements (a bit overkill actually) with a fuel cell, product engineering pump, groundpounder rails, big lines and everything else. I dont have the specs on the cam yet as it hasnt been ground (waiting for next paycheck as I just shelled out cash for a TCI AOD tranny). I figure since im using a plate injector with a big shot of nitrous the tfs r lower will be the best as it has big straight runners, Im going to have the block decked slightly which should put compression maybe up to 11.5:1 also on the nitrous I plan to run c16 gas. Can anyone give me the pro's and con's on this setup ? Also I will be in talks most liekly with insky(sp?) cams, can someone recomend some good specs ont he cam to start with ? ------------------ Jonathan Cole Silver 89 Notchback 12.404 @ 109 with 60 shot FRPP 3.73:1 Gears B&M Ripper Shifter

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04-05-2001, 10:00 PM	#2
juiceman Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: ny Posts: 197	the setup seems good assuming youre using good rods. the pistons are ok but trw pistons are slugs. theyre big and heavy. also, for the amount of power your looking for that tci aod is not likely to hold up for long. you would have been better off with a good c-4 in both the strength and power dept. and you would have saved money. as for a cam your best bet is to talk it over with the cam company of your choice.

04-05-2001, 11:04 PM	#3
jonathan Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Surrey, BC, Canada Posts: 36	Well, the rods and crank are stock but balanced, I'll put money down saying they hold up just fine for this season (completly new engine combo for next year, as the rest of the car has been built for 8's)I agree that the pistons are heavy and large, but I believe they're strong and I traded em brand new for a used t-rex, couldnt pass that up as they retail for $600 here. The streetfighter AOD I believe is a little on the weak side but not by much, I agree the c4 would be stronger and a better performer but this street fighter was custom built with better clutches, hey, and I got it for $1000 canadian, thats what ? $550 american ? all i need is a tranny blanket, shifter and converter. Besides, im so used to broken clutches and flywheels I have no problem with taking out the tranny, spending $200 on new bands and then throwing it back in every 3 months. ------------------ Jonathan Cole Silver 89 Notchback 12.404 @ 109 with 60 shot FRPP 3.73:1 Gears B&M Ripper Shifter

04-06-2001, 01:03 AM	#4
MiracleMax Registered Member Join Date: Apr 1999 Location: Hayes, Va, USA Posts: 798	Stock block? Hmmmm probably won't last long? Whats your race weight? IMO, anything approaching 550 crankshaft HP is stressing a factory 5.0 block pretty good. Anyway good luck!

04-06-2001, 01:08 AM	#5
MiracleMax Registered Member Join Date: Apr 1999 Location: Hayes, Va, USA Posts: 798	Actually that is a rather vague gauge of the upper limits in terms of power. A better way would be to say how much cylinder pressure can it take before my wallet gets lighter. ie; 500 pounds of cylinder pressure and 100 hp is alot to handle, Harder than 500 hp and 100 pounds of cylinder pressure. This is just a rather extreme example and is no way a true life scenario. Just here to illustrate a point.

04-06-2001, 02:27 PM	#6
jonnyk Being stroked is great Join Date: Oct 1998 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 772	If you're not revving beyond 6000, I'd consider the Track Heat intake instead of the R. The R is designed to rev much higher than that and will kill your bottom end torque... ------------------ 1991 LX Hatch 5.0L

04-07-2001, 04:36 PM	#8
juiceman Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: ny Posts: 197	it seems to me that although you asked for the pros and cons of your setup you dont really want to be told anything. the intake as far as nitrous goes really doesnt have as much as an affect as you thing. nitrous is a gas and provides an atmostphere in itself so therefore you dont need the best biggest flowing intake for it. the real idea is to build the egine so that it makes power n/a before you use the juice. look, you may make it a season with those stock rods and block but dont wonder why if it doesnt make it. the fact that your not going to rev it past 6000 isnt exactly the fix to the problem. especially since you want to add big parts with little revs. it just doesnt work. good luck with it though.

04-08-2001, 09:53 PM	#10
juiceman Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: ny Posts: 197	fuel starvation/ pooling is not a problem with fuel injection setups. it happens on carb setups cause the fuel comes in the plenum area and slams into the intake floor, then get dragged down the intake ports. fuel injection ports are straight so this will not happen. so the idea of pooling gas in a injected system is not going to happen. and even if it did happen, how would you be able to tell?

04-08-2001, 11:41 PM	#11
Moxie Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Plymouth, MI Posts: 254	He was referring to the common misconception that a wet nitrous system will automatically cause fuel puddling in the upper intake. I won't get into that debate right now, but with a plate between the upper and lower, you can't have puddling anyway. As long as the parts don't break, you're on the right track. With the hydraulic lifters, you won't be able to rev too far past 6000 rpm, so be sure to specify that to the cam company. Basically, you can look at the NMRA Renegade cars as a guideline, only slightly more moderate. The short runner intake will work with the n2o pretty well. Also, nitrous offers a lot of mid-range torque, so that will make up for the low-mid torque lost with the TFS R. Isky is a great choice, by the way. I have worked with them before, and they have never steered me wrong. Have them recommend matching valvesprings while you're at it. They make the best valvesprings in the business. If you need a source for a nitrous plate, let me know. All I need is a gasket as a template. ------------------ Moxie Racing The Nitrous Oxide Information Site

04-09-2001, 06:54 PM	#12
juiceman Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: ny Posts: 197	moxy, i know what myth he was refering to thats why i said it doesnt happen with fuel injected cars. as far as the intake goes, its not a proper setup. you do not get an intake thats made to work past 6000 and only use it to 6000 then figure the juice will make up for the lost power. since juice gives alot of torque and h.p. it is best used when the motor makes power on its own. the proper setup would be long runners that breath well to give the motor torque and power to 6000 then hit it with juice and double the power. not use the juice to get the car moving then hope the motor catches up.