Rebuilding an engine.. and then some

Halz · 03-17-2002, 02:54 AM

My current engine with 130k miles is in need of some replacement parts (injectors are leaking, timing chain is rattling, etc.) which could amount to just shy of $1k..

That engine is a KA24E and the car is a 1989 Nissan 240SX

With the stock 140hp and 13-year-old internals, there isn't really much reason to build it up. 200hp is unreasonable naturally aspirated and any sort of forced air induction would not only be illegal, but impractical as the engine is simply old.
There are engines from Japan, which I could pay premiums for, and simply 'drop' in the car and with minor tuning see 250-300hp, however again, it would expensive to maintain. Not to mention it would be illegal.. (I'm in California; strict vehicle regulations)

What brings me to post this babble in a Ford Mustang 'Windsor Power' forum? You guessed it... I am interested in a domestic alternative.. With a '95 (or if there is a better year I should look into) 5.0 engine swap, not only could the car be legal, it could be maintained, be a strong performer (hp, etc.), be relatively inexpensive, and finally, unique.

While I do live in this domestic market, I can't really say I can speak with much of any authority on the subject.

What I would like to do is plan out an engine, which I would more than likely have professionally rebuilt with performance parts and then have custom installed. From what I've gathered thus far, this path could potentially be the least expensive of all I had previously considered. First it was rebuild the KA24E, then it was install an SR20DET, then it was a rebuilt KA24DE with a turbo, then it was CA18DET.. Each option aimed with a 'goal' of ~300hp; each option with an initial cost of ~$4-5k. Granted, while the domestic swap may cost the same initially, running costs I imagine would be considerably less.. not to mention legal, if done correctly.

On with the real 'meat'...

My primary concern was the size (dimensions/weight) of an engine which would effectively more than double the current engine's displacement.. After measuring the engine bay, ~31" x ~36" x ~30", I could have just as well considered putting a modular 4.6L Cobra in

Another option is the Chevy LT1, but I'll keep quiet about that here

With a 5.0, I see immediate advantages of it being small, and light (~520lbs stock). With the 240SX's near 50/50 weight distribution (53/47, unloaded), weight is of a high concern for me.. Frankly, the stock weight of the 5.0 engine prompts my reasoning of having it rebuilt; not for only greater [hp] performance. I would hope to have the engine clad of aluminum performance parts, with maybe a final wishful weight of ~450lbs. I don't know what the weight of a T-5 transmission is... a figure I've been using in calculations is an extremely generous 75lbs. Then of course there is headers/exhaust to add to the weight.. A carbon fiber hood, removing the rear seats and moving the battery to the rear are options I have to reduce the stock weight and sharpen balance.

I havn't got a concrete idea on what I could do exactly to reduce the weight of a 5.0 while increasing its power... the potential possibilities elude me

Some pictures of the 240SX (to put things in context):
Front left
Rear left
Top left
Dirty engine

PKRWUD · 03-17-2002, 09:08 AM

You would also be wise to change the rear end.

But, let's start at the top. Avoid the used engines from Japan. They are mostly junk. They have fairly low miles, but were never maintained in the first place, and more than likely have never even had an oil change. I have dealt with several of these, and am yet to see a good engine. I finally spoke with a gentleman in Japan about it, and he explained that due to extreme laws there, most vehicles are scrapped in 5 years or less (thus, the abundance of used, low mileage engines). The owners know this will be the future of their vehicle, and see maintenance as a waste of money. They are driven hard, and maintained poorly. You would do better with a used rental car engine.

As far as legality, I would love it if you could show me where it says that you could install a Ford engine into a 1989 Nissan, legally. You can't. It would have to be re-registered as a kit car (driven less than 2500 miles anually), and it wouldn't qualify for that status.

Your best bet is to find a rebuilt replacement engine and swap out yours. For added power, there are lots of options available, including nitrous or forced induction. This would be the easiest, most cost effective, legal choice.

Take care,
-Chris

Halz · 03-17-2002, 06:24 PM

Section 4161 of Division 3 - Registration of Vehicles and Certificates of Title deals with putting a new engine/motor in a vehicle.. It reads:

Quote:

Engine or Motor Change: Distinguishing Vehicle Identification
Number
4161. (a) Whenever a motor vehicle engine or motor is installed, except
temporarily, in a motor vehicle which is identified on the ownership and
registration certificates by motor or engine number or by both the motor and
frame numbers and subject to registration under this code, the owner of the
motor vehicle shall, within 10 days thereafter, give notice to the department
upon a form furnished by it containing a description of the motor vehicle
engine or motor installed, including any identifying number thereon and the
date of the installation. The owner of the motor vehicle shall also submit to
the department with the notice the certificate of ownership and registration
card covering the motor vehicle in which the motor vehicle engine or motor
is installed and evidence of ownership covering the new or used motor vehicle
engine or motor installed and such other documents as may be required by
the department.
(b) Upon receipt of motor vehicle engine or motor change notification and
other required documents, the department shall assign a distinguishing
vehicle identification number to motor vehicles, other than motorcycles or
motor-driven cycles registered under a motor number or motor and frame
numbers. When the distinguishing vehicle identification number is placed on
the vehicle as authorized, the vehicle shall thereafter be identified by the
distinguishing identification number assigned.
(c) Notwithstanding any other provision of this section or any other
provision of law, the department shall not register a case for any motorcycle
of the push-rod type with nonjournal rods and four-stroke engines,
manufactured in the United States, without proof of the destruction of the
case being replaced. A determination verifying proof of destruction shall be
made by the Department of the California Highway Patrol.
Amended Ch. 755, Stats. 1982. Effective January 1, 1983.

It sounds pretty open-ended..

84LX89GT · 03-18-2002, 01:27 AM

In a car that is, quite bluntly, not meant to handle torque your car would twist like crazy if you put in a 5.0L not to mention the crazy amount of money and time you'd spend in fabrication IF it would physically fit.
I'll have to go with chris on saying that going with a regular replacement engine is damn near the only economical and legal option. Adding a turbo (there is probably a kit out there for your car) is a pretty economical and reliable option if not taken to extremes (such as running 20 psi constantly on the street).
I can almost tell you with certainty, that although 5.0L engines are fairly compact for a V8 there is NO WAY that it would fit into your engine bay, let alone clear anything nearby.
Good luck on your search,

Rick

PKRWUD · 03-18-2002, 07:34 AM

That's just referring to a title or ID that has, in part, the engine ID number, and what to do if you change engines, so that your title will be correct. That has nothing to do with the laws regarding engine swaps.

The vehicle code is one of many places to look. Try and find the California Code of Regulations, specifically section 3362.1. It prohibits any engine change that degrades the effectiveness of a vehicles emission control system.

The Health and Safety code, starting with section 43000 lays out restrictions as well.

In the vehicle code, section 27156 (c) says No person shall install,..., any device...which modifies...the original vehicle pollution control system.

I have paperwork that the california Air Resource Board sent me when I first opened my business, and it says, in short, "Entire engines can be replaced. As with any other replacement part, the engine must be identical to the original"

Take care,
-Chris

Halz · 04-01-2002, 02:01 AM

I've just become aware of www.monstermiata.com ... They seem able to place a V8 in the Miata for what looks to be every-day use; California legal et all.

This is looking to be more and more viable..

03-17-2002, 02:54 AM	#1
Halz Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 3	Rebuilding an engine.. and then some My current engine with 130k miles is in need of some replacement parts (injectors are leaking, timing chain is rattling, etc.) which could amount to just shy of $1k.. That engine is a KA24E and the car is a 1989 Nissan 240SX With the stock 140hp and 13-year-old internals, there isn't really much reason to build it up. 200hp is unreasonable naturally aspirated and any sort of forced air induction would not only be illegal, but impractical as the engine is simply old. There are engines from Japan, which I could pay premiums for, and simply 'drop' in the car and with minor tuning see 250-300hp, however again, it would expensive to maintain. Not to mention it would be illegal.. (I'm in California; strict vehicle regulations) What brings me to post this babble in a Ford Mustang 'Windsor Power' forum? You guessed it... I am interested in a domestic alternative.. With a '95 (or if there is a better year I should look into) 5.0 engine swap, not only could the car be legal, it could be maintained, be a strong performer (hp, etc.), be relatively inexpensive, and finally, unique. While I do live in this domestic market, I can't really say I can speak with much of any authority on the subject. What I would like to do is plan out an engine, which I would more than likely have professionally rebuilt with performance parts and then have custom installed. From what I've gathered thus far, this path could potentially be the least expensive of all I had previously considered. First it was rebuild the KA24E, then it was install an SR20DET, then it was a rebuilt KA24DE with a turbo, then it was CA18DET.. Each option aimed with a 'goal' of ~300hp; each option with an initial cost of ~$4-5k. Granted, while the domestic swap may cost the same initially, running costs I imagine would be considerably less.. not to mention legal, if done correctly. On with the real 'meat'... My primary concern was the size (dimensions/weight) of an engine which would effectively more than double the current engine's displacement.. After measuring the engine bay, ~31" x ~36" x ~30", I could have just as well considered putting a modular 4.6L Cobra in Another option is the Chevy LT1, but I'll keep quiet about that here With a 5.0, I see immediate advantages of it being small, and light (~520lbs stock). With the 240SX's near 50/50 weight distribution (53/47, unloaded), weight is of a high concern for me.. Frankly, the stock weight of the 5.0 engine prompts my reasoning of having it rebuilt; not for only greater [hp] performance. I would hope to have the engine clad of aluminum performance parts, with maybe a final wishful weight of ~450lbs. I don't know what the weight of a T-5 transmission is... a figure I've been using in calculations is an extremely generous 75lbs. Then of course there is headers/exhaust to add to the weight.. A carbon fiber hood, removing the rear seats and moving the battery to the rear are options I have to reduce the stock weight and sharpen balance. I havn't got a concrete idea on what I could do exactly to reduce the weight of a 5.0 while increasing its power... the potential possibilities elude me Some pictures of the 240SX (to put things in context): Front left Rear left Top left Dirty engine

03-17-2002, 09:08 AM	#2
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	You would also be wise to change the rear end. But, let's start at the top. Avoid the used engines from Japan. They are mostly junk. They have fairly low miles, but were never maintained in the first place, and more than likely have never even had an oil change. I have dealt with several of these, and am yet to see a good engine. I finally spoke with a gentleman in Japan about it, and he explained that due to extreme laws there, most vehicles are scrapped in 5 years or less (thus, the abundance of used, low mileage engines). The owners know this will be the future of their vehicle, and see maintenance as a waste of money. They are driven hard, and maintained poorly. You would do better with a used rental car engine. As far as legality, I would love it if you could show me where it says that you could install a Ford engine into a 1989 Nissan, legally. You can't. It would have to be re-registered as a kit car (driven less than 2500 miles anually), and it wouldn't qualify for that status. Your best bet is to find a rebuilt replacement engine and swap out yours. For added power, there are lots of options available, including nitrous or forced induction. This would be the easiest, most cost effective, legal choice. Take care, -Chris __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

03-18-2002, 01:27 AM	#4
84LX89GT Mustangs Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 1,938	In a car that is, quite bluntly, not meant to handle torque your car would twist like crazy if you put in a 5.0L not to mention the crazy amount of money and time you'd spend in fabrication IF it would physically fit. I'll have to go with chris on saying that going with a regular replacement engine is damn near the only economical and legal option. Adding a turbo (there is probably a kit out there for your car) is a pretty economical and reliable option if not taken to extremes (such as running 20 psi constantly on the street). I can almost tell you with certainty, that although 5.0L engines are fairly compact for a V8 there is NO WAY that it would fit into your engine bay, let alone clear anything nearby. Good luck on your search, Rick __________________ 2005 Suzuki Hayabusa GSX1300-R 1980 Ford Thunderbird - 255 V8 ported heads, 5.0L ported stock headers, O.R. H-pipe and Flowmaster 2-chambers, dual roller timing chain hi-po Mack Truck hood emblem 1985 Mustang GT 5.0L T5, F-303, GT40p, headers, off-road h, flowmasters, MSD stuff, etc. Sold 02/06/04 1989 Mustang GT ET: 13.304@102.29 mph (5-24-03) Sold - 1998 Mustang Cobra coupe, 1/4 mile - street tires: 13.843@103.41 (bone stock)

03-18-2002, 07:34 AM	#5
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	That's just referring to a title or ID that has, in part, the engine ID number, and what to do if you change engines, so that your title will be correct. That has nothing to do with the laws regarding engine swaps. The vehicle code is one of many places to look. Try and find the California Code of Regulations, specifically section 3362.1. It prohibits any engine change that degrades the effectiveness of a vehicles emission control system. The Health and Safety code, starting with section 43000 lays out restrictions as well. In the vehicle code, section 27156 (c) says No person shall install,..., any device...which modifies...the original vehicle pollution control system. I have paperwork that the california Air Resource Board sent me when I first opened my business, and it says, in short, "Entire engines can be replaced. As with any other replacement part, the engine must be identical to the original" Take care, -Chris __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

04-01-2002, 02:01 AM	#6
Halz Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 3	I've just become aware of www.monstermiata.com ... They seem able to place a V8 in the Miata for what looks to be every-day use; California legal et all. This is looking to be more and more viable..