Help with Timing, Vacuum and Backfire - 289c.i.

agazzo · 12-01-2005, 04:43 PM

HELP!

I really don’t know what to do, my 67 mustang is experimenting some estrange symptoms and I had tried a lot of things but they still.
First things first, my Pony is a 1967, Peruvian assembled, Hardtop (coupe) with a code C 289; she is with the family since new, was my mother daily car, she give it to me in October 1999, so I decide to make a complete Overhaul.
The body was repaired and beautiful painted (Dupond Candy Apple red) and the engine received some modifications:
- Overbored to 0.030
- Edelbrock Performer power package (Intake Manifold 2121, Lifters, 600 cfm Carburetor 1406, Valve springs, Camshaft 2122 – see below for specs.)
- Edelbrock fuel pump (1725)
- Manley Valves (1.940” Int., 1.600” Exh.)
- Ford 289 1966 Iron Heads, home ported
- Competition Cams Magnum Steel Roller Tip Rockers
- Pertronix Ignitor & Coil (Flame Thrower)
- High volume Oil pump
- Federal Mogul forged pistons
- Headman headers 1 7/8” & 3” collector
- ARP bolts and studs

After the rebuild and the cam break-in the car was used very few (100miles) and parked for two years (I am a consultant and got a job overseas that took a little longer than expected). When I return the first thing that I want to do was to turn on my car, so I begin to prepare it by changing the oil, but, oh surprise, there was water in the carter, a lot more than standard condensation. After the obligatory disassembly and a pressure test, I notice that the problem was porosity in the block, the last chamber in the driver’s side was leaking. In Peru, where I live, it is almost impossible to find a new block, so I decide to repair it. After an excellent welding job with the block immersed in sand or something like that, the porosity was gone, and I start the assembly.

When assembled, with 10° of advance the engine was running irregularly and making around 12” manifold vacuum, and building a lot of exhaust backfire. I try to correct it by modifying the timing, going after TDC until the engine make effort to start, in this way I got 28° ATDC idle timing, the engine was running better and the vacuum was around 15”; my total time, with disconnected vacuum advance, was of about 48°; too much for what I know.
I recheck the camshaft synchronism with the help of a degree wheel and was ok, with the 1 cylinder in TDC (top most piston position after the intake valve was opened and closed) and the degree wheel in 0, both dots where pointing each other in a strait line and, when assembled, the timing marks on the dumper where ok.
I replace the Pertronix Ignitor with a new set of points and condensator just to check if that so much advance was due to a defective Ignitor, and …it is the same, my engine wants 28° of idle advance.
I set the idle advance to 15° and try to regulate the carburetion, but it was impossible to get more than 1” vacuum and/or 20RPM more, I set it the best that I can and go for a ride. Once on the street, each time that I give gas the engine is backfiring through the exhaust, mainly when under load.
As a tip, my header gaskets are standard exhaust manifold ones and have being used twice (because of the leakage problem).

Now the Questions!!!
1. What should I do with the timing?
2. What about that silly backfire?
3. What about the vacuum?

I will appreciate any ideas or experiences.

Camshaft Specs.

Advertised @ .050
Int. Ex. Int. Ex.
Duration: 270° 280° 204° 214°

@ Cam @Valve
Int. Ex. Int. Ex.
Lift .280 .295 .448 .472

Centerlines
Lobe Seps. Intake Ctrline
112° 107°

Timing @ .050
INTAKE EXHAUST
OPEN CLOSE OPEN CLOSE
5° ATDC 29° ABDC 44° BBDC 10° BTDC

Phillyfanfrombirth · 12-01-2005, 06:12 PM

I'm trying to figure out how you fit a 1.94/1.6 valve set up into a stock 1966 head with any kind of lift... that must be one heck of a squeeze. I have those valves in a set of Windsor Jr. heads, but those chambers make the stock heads look tiny.

That said, any possibility of some valves sticking open? or the rocker arms torqued too tight?

"ARP bolts and studs"... I would take this to mean that you've pulled the stock rocker studs and you've replaced them with screw in studs? If not, check your studs with a straight edge to make sure none have dislodged... If any look out of whack (I had one sticking up about 1/4" one time) they will have to be pulled and replaced.

agazzo · 12-01-2005, 06:57 PM

the 1.94/1.6 valves where fitted with a really good machinist (the best in Peru) who use to work with the Peruvian Airforce and was an airplane engine mechanic. It is a really good job! including bronze guides and a 3 angle valve job.
I had double checked the valves adjustment in both ways, the cold one, assuring that each valve is in the correct part of the lobe, and the hod way, making a mess; in both cases 1/2 turn from zero lach.
Do you have a good way to check if a valve sticks open?
About the studs, you are right the same machinist that do the head job has replaced them.
Thanks for your help.

agazzo · 12-01-2005, 06:58 PM

One more thing, Sorry about my bad english.

Phillyfanfrombirth · 12-01-2005, 07:55 PM

Did you try a compression test?

That should show whether or not you are the valves are seated... It would be difficult to look at it and know, unless something was severely bent... or if you were to have lost a valve lock.

Am I to assume that you are running a hydraulic cam? If that is the case, double check those adjustments... After running the engine for a minute or so, you should be able to spin the pushrods on valves that are seated with your fingers. If you can't, back it off a 1/4 turn and try again...

As to your English, I'd try to answer you in Spanish... but it has been so long since I spoke it (about 10 years), I'd end up embarrassing myself and unknowingly insult you...

LOL!!!

By the way, what the heck is going on down there? Looks like the entire South American economy is taking off... Is it going to be for real this time, or another boom and bust?

agazzo · 12-01-2005, 08:10 PM

The compression test that I do after the re-assembly was Ok, if I remember Ok, all cylinder were around 125' +/- 5% (this, the 5% I remember well).
The cam is a Hydraulic one, so Im gona try with the valves/lifters finger test on saturday.

About the southamerican economy, it is true, it seams as is taking of, but I think is just another ballon efect. Let see in a couple of months.

Are you sure that your Spanish is worst than my English? I'm not.
LOL
Thanks again.

Phillyfanfrombirth · 12-01-2005, 09:09 PM

The compression test would look normal if the lifters were compressed from a lack of oil pressure. It is a mistake that I've made in the past, I would tighten them and let it sit overnight to find that they were loose again in the morning... then I would tighten them again.

It really sounds like something is wrong with the valves or the valve timing. Since you are sure that the timing is correct, and there is no compression issuethat would be my next move.

CAFTA will surely be mutually beneficial... if the region can get some political stability, it could truly be a long term economic expansion. There are a number of South American companies that do business with our stock exchange... Banco Bradesco was one of my favorites... but they've done extremely well over the past year or so.

!Buenas Suerte!

rwhite65 · 12-02-2005, 12:46 AM

Ok, I am just gonna start simple here. The back firing and things of that nature have started happening since you re-assembled the car, correct? If so, check for a vacuum leak....sounds an awful lot like a leak I had on a 408 I did this summer.
Ryan

agazzo · 12-02-2005, 09:42 AM

FOR: Phillyfanfrombirth.
About the lifters, I´m gona do the re-tightening procedure and retest compression, which, do you think, is the best way to adjust valve clearance? The messy or the engine-stopped one? And how to do it properly? A half or a quarter turn?

Yes, CAFT will be mutually beneficial (mainly for me, spare parts and accessories without import taxes!). About political stability, I don’t know how to get it, in South American countries, with more than 70% analphabets, with an old fashioned political class that still speaks about socialism (that is demonstrated that doesn’t work), or about legalizing the coca leaf, and a lot of corruption; I think is very complicated to get that stability, but yes, you are right, with political stability it could be a long term economic expansion. About stock exchange, there are also some Peruvian companies, mainly with ARs, that are in your stock exchange; CREDICORP, Southern Cooper Corporation and Minera Buenaventura.

agazzo · 12-02-2005, 09:52 AM

FOR Ryan.
Thanks for you collaboration, at the beginning, I also think that it was a vacuum leak problem (I am still in doubt), so I use a clinical stethoscope, after closing all vacuum hoses, to hear if there is a “his” around the carburetor and intake manifold, but there is nothing that hears like that
A vacuum leak (or I can’t recognize it), I also, try by covering the carburetor, and the engines begins to die. I have hear about testing methods that uses carburetor cleaner, and propane (?) to do this leakage test, I tried with the cleaner and noting happens.
Which do you think is a good way to test for leakage?
Many thanks in advance.

agazzo · 12-02-2005, 10:18 AM

One thing that I forgot to tell. My Mustang is also equiped with an Edelbrock Performer Nitrous Plate Systems, but just plate and solenoids are installed.

Phillyfanfrombirth · 12-02-2005, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agazzo

FOR: Phillyfanfrombirth.
About the lifters, I´m gona do the re-tightening procedure and retest compression, which, do you think, is the best way to adjust valve clearance? The messy or the engine-stopped one? And how to do it properly? A half or a quarter turn?

Yes, CAFT will be mutually beneficial (mainly for me, spare parts and accessories without import taxes!). About political stability, I don’t know how to get it, in South American countries, with more than 70% analphabets, with an old fashioned political class that still speaks about socialism (that is demonstrated that doesn’t work), or about legalizing the coca leaf, and a lot of corruption; I think is very complicated to get that stability, but yes, you are right, with political stability it could be a long term economic expansion. About stock exchange, there are also some Peruvian companies, mainly with ARs, that are in your stock exchange; CREDICORP, Southern Cooper Corporation and Minera Buenaventura.

Yep... I'm familiar with them. Copper (and other commodities) has been hot throughout the world...

Don't attempt to adjust the valves with the engine running.... but run the engine before you attempt to adjust the valves. That will ensure that your lifters are filled with hydraulic pressure, and you won't overtighten them. When you get them where you want them, put the valve covers back on, start it up again... and recheck them. You should be able to spin the pushrods between your fingers without too much problem.

Gearhead999 · 12-03-2005, 10:05 AM

Sounds like a tight valve or a vacume leak. But, have we checked the firing order?? The cam isn't set up for 351W firing order is it??

Just trying to cover all the bases here.

Also, how about the booster for the power brakes, if it is equiped??

rwhite65 · 12-03-2005, 11:52 AM

Agazzo-
the way I finally found my vacuum leak, was by taking carb. cleaner and spraying it heavily along the intake to head seal on both sides. When I got to my leak, made my car's idle smoothed right out for a short period of time. When the idle got rough again, another shot where the leak was smoothed the idle out again.

This may be overly cautious, but did u use a torque wrench to install the intake?
Ryan

Phillyfanfrombirth · 12-03-2005, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gearhead999

Sounds like a tight valve or a vacume leak. But, have we checked the firing order?? The cam isn't set up for 351W firing order is it??

Just trying to cover all the bases here.

Also, how about the booster for the power brakes, if it is equiped??

Good points... One of my brother's friends was smacking his head into a wall for a week before I had the chance to drop in and tell him that he was using the old 302 firiing order instead of the 5.0 order...

The car would run, it would just pop out the carb and didn't hold great vacuum...

He didn't believe me... so I proved it to him with the valve covers off and the distributor cap off. He understood what and why, then... and the car was a quick fix.

agazzo · 12-06-2005, 10:07 AM

Thanks for all the advise. On Saturday (and Sunday) I was unable to do any thing with my Pony; because while I was driving the family car (1993 Ford Aerostar) I went out of brakes. It isn't funny! Thanks God I was going uphill and the Van weights a lot, so after slowing my speed with the transmission, I stop the engine to used it as a load and parked safetly; oh yes, it was 01:30am of Friday. So I spend the full weakend with the fat girl (the van, not my wife), it was a hole (really) in the master cylinder. I am going to try your recommendations next Thursday (is a hollyday in Peru).

67DownUnder · 12-11-2005, 05:36 AM

Hi Agazzo,
How old is the harmonic balancer? It's the bit mounted on the front of the crank shaft and has the timing marks on it.
Basically it is a steel inner and a steel outer which are bonded together with rubber.
After 30 odd years the rubber perishes and the outer moves with respect to the inner. Timing marks are no longer valid.
Unbelievable difference when I replaced it on my 67.

12-01-2005, 04:43 PM	#1
agazzo Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: LIMA, PERU Posts: 15	Help with Timing, Vacuum and Backfire - 289c.i. HELP! I really don’t know what to do, my 67 mustang is experimenting some estrange symptoms and I had tried a lot of things but they still. First things first, my Pony is a 1967, Peruvian assembled, Hardtop (coupe) with a code C 289; she is with the family since new, was my mother daily car, she give it to me in October 1999, so I decide to make a complete Overhaul. The body was repaired and beautiful painted (Dupond Candy Apple red) and the engine received some modifications: - Overbored to 0.030 - Edelbrock Performer power package (Intake Manifold 2121, Lifters, 600 cfm Carburetor 1406, Valve springs, Camshaft 2122 – see below for specs.) - Edelbrock fuel pump (1725) - Manley Valves (1.940” Int., 1.600” Exh.) - Ford 289 1966 Iron Heads, home ported - Competition Cams Magnum Steel Roller Tip Rockers - Pertronix Ignitor & Coil (Flame Thrower) - High volume Oil pump - Federal Mogul forged pistons - Headman headers 1 7/8” & 3” collector - ARP bolts and studs After the rebuild and the cam break-in the car was used very few (100miles) and parked for two years (I am a consultant and got a job overseas that took a little longer than expected). When I return the first thing that I want to do was to turn on my car, so I begin to prepare it by changing the oil, but, oh surprise, there was water in the carter, a lot more than standard condensation. After the obligatory disassembly and a pressure test, I notice that the problem was porosity in the block, the last chamber in the driver’s side was leaking. In Peru, where I live, it is almost impossible to find a new block, so I decide to repair it. After an excellent welding job with the block immersed in sand or something like that, the porosity was gone, and I start the assembly. When assembled, with 10° of advance the engine was running irregularly and making around 12” manifold vacuum, and building a lot of exhaust backfire. I try to correct it by modifying the timing, going after TDC until the engine make effort to start, in this way I got 28° ATDC idle timing, the engine was running better and the vacuum was around 15”; my total time, with disconnected vacuum advance, was of about 48°; too much for what I know. I recheck the camshaft synchronism with the help of a degree wheel and was ok, with the 1 cylinder in TDC (top most piston position after the intake valve was opened and closed) and the degree wheel in 0, both dots where pointing each other in a strait line and, when assembled, the timing marks on the dumper where ok. I replace the Pertronix Ignitor with a new set of points and condensator just to check if that so much advance was due to a defective Ignitor, and …it is the same, my engine wants 28° of idle advance. I set the idle advance to 15° and try to regulate the carburetion, but it was impossible to get more than 1” vacuum and/or 20RPM more, I set it the best that I can and go for a ride. Once on the street, each time that I give gas the engine is backfiring through the exhaust, mainly when under load. As a tip, my header gaskets are standard exhaust manifold ones and have being used twice (because of the leakage problem). Now the Questions!!! 1. What should I do with the timing? 2. What about that silly backfire? 3. What about the vacuum? I will appreciate any ideas or experiences. Camshaft Specs. Advertised @ .050 Int. Ex. Int. Ex. Duration: 270° 280° 204° 214° @ Cam @Valve Int. Ex. Int. Ex. Lift .280 .295 .448 .472 Centerlines Lobe Seps. Intake Ctrline 112° 107° Timing @ .050 INTAKE EXHAUST OPEN CLOSE OPEN CLOSE 5° ATDC 29° ABDC 44° BBDC 10° BTDC

12-01-2005, 06:12 PM	#2
Phillyfanfrombirth Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: South Central PA Posts: 358	Re: Help with Timing, Vacuum and Backfire - 289c.i. I'm trying to figure out how you fit a 1.94/1.6 valve set up into a stock 1966 head with any kind of lift... that must be one heck of a squeeze. I have those valves in a set of Windsor Jr. heads, but those chambers make the stock heads look tiny. That said, any possibility of some valves sticking open? or the rocker arms torqued too tight? "ARP bolts and studs"... I would take this to mean that you've pulled the stock rocker studs and you've replaced them with screw in studs? If not, check your studs with a straight edge to make sure none have dislodged... If any look out of whack (I had one sticking up about 1/4" one time) they will have to be pulled and replaced.

12-01-2005, 06:57 PM	#3
agazzo Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: LIMA, PERU Posts: 15	Re: Help with Timing, Vacuum and Backfire - 289c.i. the 1.94/1.6 valves where fitted with a really good machinist (the best in Peru) who use to work with the Peruvian Airforce and was an airplane engine mechanic. It is a really good job! including bronze guides and a 3 angle valve job. I had double checked the valves adjustment in both ways, the cold one, assuring that each valve is in the correct part of the lobe, and the hod way, making a mess; in both cases 1/2 turn from zero lach. Do you have a good way to check if a valve sticks open? About the studs, you are right the same machinist that do the head job has replaced them. Thanks for your help.

12-01-2005, 06:58 PM	#4
agazzo Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: LIMA, PERU Posts: 15	Re: Help with Timing, Vacuum and Backfire - 289c.i. One more thing, Sorry about my bad english.

12-01-2005, 07:55 PM	#5
Phillyfanfrombirth Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: South Central PA Posts: 358	Re: Help with Timing, Vacuum and Backfire - 289c.i. Did you try a compression test? That should show whether or not you are the valves are seated... It would be difficult to look at it and know, unless something was severely bent... or if you were to have lost a valve lock. Am I to assume that you are running a hydraulic cam? If that is the case, double check those adjustments... After running the engine for a minute or so, you should be able to spin the pushrods on valves that are seated with your fingers. If you can't, back it off a 1/4 turn and try again... As to your English, I'd try to answer you in Spanish... but it has been so long since I spoke it (about 10 years), I'd end up embarrassing myself and unknowingly insult you... LOL!!! By the way, what the heck is going on down there? Looks like the entire South American economy is taking off... Is it going to be for real this time, or another boom and bust?

12-01-2005, 08:10 PM	#6
agazzo Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: LIMA, PERU Posts: 15	Re: Help with Timing, Vacuum and Backfire - 289c.i. The compression test that I do after the re-assembly was Ok, if I remember Ok, all cylinder were around 125' +/- 5% (this, the 5% I remember well). The cam is a Hydraulic one, so Im gona try with the valves/lifters finger test on saturday. About the southamerican economy, it is true, it seams as is taking of, but I think is just another ballon efect. Let see in a couple of months. Are you sure that your Spanish is worst than my English? I'm not. LOL Thanks again.

12-01-2005, 09:09 PM	#7
Phillyfanfrombirth Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: South Central PA Posts: 358	Re: Help with Timing, Vacuum and Backfire - 289c.i. The compression test would look normal if the lifters were compressed from a lack of oil pressure. It is a mistake that I've made in the past, I would tighten them and let it sit overnight to find that they were loose again in the morning... then I would tighten them again. It really sounds like something is wrong with the valves or the valve timing. Since you are sure that the timing is correct, and there is no compression issuethat would be my next move. CAFTA will surely be mutually beneficial... if the region can get some political stability, it could truly be a long term economic expansion. There are a number of South American companies that do business with our stock exchange... Banco Bradesco was one of my favorites... but they've done extremely well over the past year or so. !Buenas Suerte!

12-02-2005, 12:46 AM	#8
rwhite65 Ride Hard Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Wyoming IL Posts: 1,094	Re: Help with Timing, Vacuum and Backfire - 289c.i. Ok, I am just gonna start simple here. The back firing and things of that nature have started happening since you re-assembled the car, correct? If so, check for a vacuum leak....sounds an awful lot like a leak I had on a 408 I did this summer. Ryan __________________ 65 Fastback 91 roller 306, H/C/I AOD-Bauman, PI Stallion, 4.10's and traction loc 04 Grand Cherokee Freedom Edition 79 Ford F-250 4x4 - Restored

12-02-2005, 09:42 AM	#9
agazzo Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: LIMA, PERU Posts: 15	Re: Help with Timing, Vacuum and Backfire - 289c.i. FOR: Phillyfanfrombirth. About the lifters, I´m gona do the re-tightening procedure and retest compression, which, do you think, is the best way to adjust valve clearance? The messy or the engine-stopped one? And how to do it properly? A half or a quarter turn? Yes, CAFT will be mutually beneficial (mainly for me, spare parts and accessories without import taxes!). About political stability, I don’t know how to get it, in South American countries, with more than 70% analphabets, with an old fashioned political class that still speaks about socialism (that is demonstrated that doesn’t work), or about legalizing the coca leaf, and a lot of corruption; I think is very complicated to get that stability, but yes, you are right, with political stability it could be a long term economic expansion. About stock exchange, there are also some Peruvian companies, mainly with ARs, that are in your stock exchange; CREDICORP, Southern Cooper Corporation and Minera Buenaventura.

12-02-2005, 09:52 AM	#10
agazzo Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: LIMA, PERU Posts: 15	Re: Help with Timing, Vacuum and Backfire - 289c.i. FOR Ryan. Thanks for you collaboration, at the beginning, I also think that it was a vacuum leak problem (I am still in doubt), so I use a clinical stethoscope, after closing all vacuum hoses, to hear if there is a “his” around the carburetor and intake manifold, but there is nothing that hears like that A vacuum leak (or I can’t recognize it), I also, try by covering the carburetor, and the engines begins to die. I have hear about testing methods that uses carburetor cleaner, and propane (?) to do this leakage test, I tried with the cleaner and noting happens. Which do you think is a good way to test for leakage? Many thanks in advance.

12-02-2005, 10:18 AM	#11
agazzo Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: LIMA, PERU Posts: 15	Re: Help with Timing, Vacuum and Backfire - 289c.i. One thing that I forgot to tell. My Mustang is also equiped with an Edelbrock Performer Nitrous Plate Systems, but just plate and solenoids are installed.

12-03-2005, 10:05 AM	#13
Gearhead999 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 1998 Location: Oviedo, FL Posts: 992	Re: Help with Timing, Vacuum and Backfire - 289c.i. Sounds like a tight valve or a vacume leak. But, have we checked the firing order?? The cam isn't set up for 351W firing order is it?? Just trying to cover all the bases here. Also, how about the booster for the power brakes, if it is equiped?? __________________ "Support our Troops" Dave 1968 Cougar 2004 Thunderbird 2007 F150 Harley-Davidson, SuperCrew 1986 LTD 1997 Ranger 1992 Honda Civic

12-03-2005, 11:52 AM	#14
rwhite65 Ride Hard Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Wyoming IL Posts: 1,094	Re: Help with Timing, Vacuum and Backfire - 289c.i. Agazzo- the way I finally found my vacuum leak, was by taking carb. cleaner and spraying it heavily along the intake to head seal on both sides. When I got to my leak, made my car's idle smoothed right out for a short period of time. When the idle got rough again, another shot where the leak was smoothed the idle out again. This may be overly cautious, but did u use a torque wrench to install the intake? Ryan __________________ 65 Fastback 91 roller 306, H/C/I AOD-Bauman, PI Stallion, 4.10's and traction loc 04 Grand Cherokee Freedom Edition 79 Ford F-250 4x4 - Restored

12-06-2005, 10:07 AM	#16
agazzo Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: LIMA, PERU Posts: 15	Re: Help with Timing, Vacuum and Backfire - 289c.i. Thanks for all the advise. On Saturday (and Sunday) I was unable to do any thing with my Pony; because while I was driving the family car (1993 Ford Aerostar) I went out of brakes. It isn't funny! Thanks God I was going uphill and the Van weights a lot, so after slowing my speed with the transmission, I stop the engine to used it as a load and parked safetly; oh yes, it was 01:30am of Friday. So I spend the full weakend with the fat girl (the van, not my wife), it was a hole (really) in the master cylinder. I am going to try your recommendations next Thursday (is a hollyday in Peru).

12-11-2005, 05:36 AM	#17
67DownUnder Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1	Re: Help with Timing, Vacuum and Backfire - 289c.i. Hi Agazzo, How old is the harmonic balancer? It's the bit mounted on the front of the crank shaft and has the timing marks on it. Basically it is a steel inner and a steel outer which are bonded together with rubber. After 30 odd years the rubber perishes and the outer moves with respect to the inner. Timing marks are no longer valid. Unbelievable difference when I replaced it on my 67.

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