Pulled codes today...

bobtodd · 08-02-2002, 09:53 AM

I had written an earlier post about losing my top end power. Well, after searching through posts the last few days, I've found that it could be a few different things. Worn valve springs, lean fuel problem, TPS, timing, etc. Well, I was leaning more towards worn valve springs. The car use to pull super hard all the way up to 6 grand with no signs of letting up when I first bought it...about 5 months ago. Now the car has lost its top end power and pulls decent up to about 4500 rpms...after that it revs but there isnt any of that "pull" feel like it use to be.
I checked my timing and that is fine. I still have to get a fuel pressure gauge to check how my FP is under load.
I decided to go ahead and purchase a code reader. I hooked it up this morning and go the following codes...

KOEO
51 - ECT sensor out of range indicated..what is the ECT sensor?
22 - MAP or BARO sensor out of range...?
23 - TPS out of range....which is one of the things I am having problems with
67 - NDS circuit failure or A/C input high....I removed my A/C...could that cause any problems?

I got my dads voltmeter so I am going to go mess with the TPS some more today. I know I should be reading around .98 with the car warm. I dont know if I'm just not getting a good reading but before when testing the TPS I was getting .7's I did buy a new TPS and it shows the same numbers. I am going to put my old one back on and take some of the insulation off the green wire to possibly get a better reading.

So, besides the tps could anything else pulled from these codes cause my top end power loss?
When removing my A/C could I have unplugged anything to lose vacuum? Since I dont have A/C can I just pull the A/C vacuum hose off the tree and plug it?
Well, if anyone has some ideas I'd appreciate. Thank you!

PKRWUD · 08-02-2002, 09:59 AM

Was the engine warmed up when you pulled the codes?

bobtodd · 08-02-2002, 10:06 AM

Yeah...I cruised it around and got the temp up to normal running conditions.

PKRWUD · 08-02-2002, 10:12 AM

Then you need to replace the ECT (Engine Coolant Temp sensor). You also need to set your TPS. After doing both of those, reset the ECM by disconnecting the neg battery cable, then turning on the headlight switch for 10 minutes, then turn it off, and reconnect the battery cable. Go for a 20 minute test drive, come back, and run KOEO codes again.

Take care,
~Chris

bobtodd · 08-02-2002, 10:35 AM

I forgot to mention that I put in an aftermarket temp. gauge. Is that why that would pop up? I guess I didnt realize what the ECT was. As far as the TPS, I went out and checked it again. With the ignition on and the engine off, I was still getting readings of .7's I did see a .8 when the tps was cranked over as far as it would go...and this is with the front screw out to be able to get it over that far. I had put the old TPS back in and pulled some of the insulation on the green wire so I know I was getting accurate readings. Do you think that both TPS's could be bad? I just bought the one. What else could cause such low numbers?

PKRWUD · 08-02-2002, 11:55 AM

Where did you install the sending unit for your temp gauge?

What does your TPS read at WOT?

bobtodd · 08-02-2002, 12:11 PM

I am guessing it's where the ECT was....on top of the lower part of the intake. Should I have used some sort of T so both sensors are hooked up? I was just wondering if my stock gauges were accurate so I installed a cheap aftermarket gauge. SHould I reinstall the stock sensor when pulling the codes?
Also, how can you tell if your O2 sensors are bad? Is there any way by looking at them or a way to test them? I've never replaced O2 sensors before but plan on taking them out today and checking them over. Thanks for the help PKRWUD! I've been searching and looking over old posts and it looks like you definatley know your stuff!!

bobtodd · 08-02-2002, 12:14 PM

Oh yeah...I never did check my TPS at wide open throttle. I'll try that out too and let you knw. I've got to bring my car to my parents house now to work on it...GRRR

The manager at the apartments I live at walked past my garage when I was out there and basically told me "there is no working on cars in these garages!!" All I was doing was checking my TPS....sheesh. Anyhow, I'll check some things out and get back to you.

1hot5.0 · 08-02-2002, 12:22 PM

I hate it when apartment managers come by and think that they can run your life. So what if you were working on your car? You have a right to. Anyways, it sounds to me also like you need to adjust your tps sensor. Also, you may want to check all of your vacuum lines. Hope everything gets fixed soon.

bobtodd · 08-02-2002, 01:30 PM

Me too!!...thanks!!

PKRWUD · 08-02-2002, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bobtodd
I am guessing it's where the ECT was....on top of the lower part of the intake. Should I have used some sort of T so both sensors are hooked up? I was just wondering if my stock gauges were accurate so I installed a cheap aftermarket gauge.

Okay, there are two temp sensors on your engine. Both are towards the front on the lower intake, with one on each side of the distributor. The one on the drivers side of the distributor is for your factory gauge. This is where you should install the sending unit for your gauge. The one on the passenger side of the distributor is the ECT. It's how the ECM (computer) knows the engine temp, and is critical for a good running engine.

Which one did you remove to install your sending unit?

Take care,
~Chris

PKRWUD · 08-02-2002, 03:18 PM

Oh, BTW, leave your O2 sensors alone for now. You can replace them if you want to, but I wouldn't worry about it just yet.

Take care,
~Chris

bobtodd · 08-02-2002, 04:23 PM

DOh!!...looks like I took off the wrong one!! I guess I'll be putting that back in. It's a good thing there is such a thing as Mustangworks with knowledgable people like yourself helping me out.
I unplugged my ten pin connectors and put dielectric on all the pins.
Here's what is a mystery to me...I was down under the car looking at my O2 sensors and they weren't even plugged in. Both wires coming off of the sensors came to a "Y" which came into a loom of wires which had a plug at the end of it. Hmmm....I looked around for a connector to the fit the plug and I found one over close to the mass air sensor...it fit! Well, I start the car up and it sounds waaay better. Like when I first bought. You rev it and the R's shoot up the way the should and it has that "mean" sound to it. I took it for a spin and I'm still not satisfied with how it ran. Still doesnt have that pull to it that it use to. When I get back to my apartment I am going to check the timing and make sure thats where it needs to be.
I still cant get my TPS to read .9's. Is there anything before the TPS that could cause low voltage readings like that? I am hoping that once I can figure out my TPS problems my car may be running the way it should. I still want to get a FP gauge so I can check on that. I guess my next step is to get that temp sensor back on the engine.
Well, I need to get scootin. Let me know if anything else comes to mind. Thanks for help!!

PKRWUD · 08-02-2002, 05:42 PM

What does the TPS read at WOT?

bobtodd · 08-02-2002, 06:19 PM

How do I check the TPS WOT? Hook the voltmeter up and pull the cable connected to the throttle body?

PKRWUD · 08-02-2002, 07:03 PM

DMM pos lead to the green wire.
DMM neg lead to the black wire.
DMM set to 20 vdc scale.
KOEO.

Read DMM. This is your TPS reading at idle.
Next, rotate the throttle by hand to WOT.
Read DMM. This is your TPS setting at WOT.

Post the results.

Take care,
~Chris

bobtodd · 08-02-2002, 08:24 PM

I just bought this tps but I think its messed up too. It's probably a month old, but the first day I bought it I was adjusting it as far to the left as I could get because I was getting a higher reading. In fact I left the front screw out(still keeping it flush with the top of the throttle body). Well, I took it for a test drive, got on it , and the throttle stuck wide open...doh!! Well, looking under the TPS now I see that the plastic teeth are chewed up. It must have been from that little blade that sits underneath it. So would those teeth being messed up give a different result when using the voltmeter?
I stuck a sewing pin through the green wire, and a pin through, the black wire. Hooked the two volt meter wires up accordingly, turned the ignition on. After moving the tps side to side, the best reading I could get was a .6. When I would give it WOT, there wasnt much(if any)change in the numbers. SHould they go up or down at WOT?
BY the way, I got a new ETC sensor and put that on. The car runs good but still doesnt have the pull I'm looking for..like it did have.
Hopefully once this tps problem is solved things will be better. Once again, thank you for the help

PKRWUD · 08-03-2002, 12:21 AM

The TPS should read around .9~.95 vdc at idle, and about 4.6~4.8 vdc at WOT. It should increase as you open the throttle.

Unplug the TPS from the harness.
Remove the TPS.
Look at the backside of the TPS, and you will see tangs where a blade could fit (like a screwdriver blade).
Look at the end of the throttle shaft where the TPS mounts, and you will see a corresponding blade.
Line the two up, and slide the tangs into position over the blade, so the TPS is flush against the TB. Rotate the TPS CLOCKWISE just a little bit, so that the screw holes line up. You will feel the internal spring tightening as you do this. Once the holes are lined up, insert the screws, and snug them down. Be sure not to let go of the TPS until the screws are snug, or the tangs will jump over the blade.
Once it's snug, plug it into the harness, and test it again, KOEO, both at idle and at WOT, and see what the readings are.

Post the results.

Take care,
~Chris

bobtodd · 08-03-2002, 08:13 AM

So those tangs are suppose to sit right on top of the blade?

jimberg · 08-03-2002, 08:48 AM

Quote:

I've got to bring my car to my parents house now to work on it...GRRR
The manager at the apartments I live at walked past my garage when I was out there and basically told me "there is no working on cars in these garages!!" All I was doing was checking my TPS....

Find out what it says in your lease. It probably says no MAJOR repairs. Like someone already said, you have a right to maintain your vehicle. Nothing you are doing will cause a spill.

When we were renting our town house, we had the same sort of restriction. I pulled my engine and installed the new engine.

Nothing major, right? I just made sure that when we moved out that I scrubbed the garage floor until it was cleaner than when we moved in.

08-02-2002, 09:53 AM	#1
bobtodd Registered Member Join Date: Dec 1998 Location: WI, U.S Posts: 255	Pulled codes today... I had written an earlier post about losing my top end power. Well, after searching through posts the last few days, I've found that it could be a few different things. Worn valve springs, lean fuel problem, TPS, timing, etc. Well, I was leaning more towards worn valve springs. The car use to pull super hard all the way up to 6 grand with no signs of letting up when I first bought it...about 5 months ago. Now the car has lost its top end power and pulls decent up to about 4500 rpms...after that it revs but there isnt any of that "pull" feel like it use to be. I checked my timing and that is fine. I still have to get a fuel pressure gauge to check how my FP is under load. I decided to go ahead and purchase a code reader. I hooked it up this morning and go the following codes... KOEO 51 - ECT sensor out of range indicated..what is the ECT sensor? 22 - MAP or BARO sensor out of range...? 23 - TPS out of range....which is one of the things I am having problems with 67 - NDS circuit failure or A/C input high....I removed my A/C...could that cause any problems? I got my dads voltmeter so I am going to go mess with the TPS some more today. I know I should be reading around .98 with the car warm. I dont know if I'm just not getting a good reading but before when testing the TPS I was getting .7's I did buy a new TPS and it shows the same numbers. I am going to put my old one back on and take some of the insulation off the green wire to possibly get a better reading. So, besides the tps could anything else pulled from these codes cause my top end power loss? When removing my A/C could I have unplugged anything to lose vacuum? Since I dont have A/C can I just pull the A/C vacuum hose off the tree and plug it? Well, if anyone has some ideas I'd appreciate. Thank you! __________________ 91 LX - 10.5:1 pistons, ported 289 heads, Ultradyne 588 cam, Cobra upper/lower, MSD, JBA long tube headers, Flowmaster, Richmond 4:10, roll cage, monster tach...FUN!! 95 SHO - K&N filter

08-02-2002, 09:59 AM	#2
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Was the engine warmed up when you pulled the codes? __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

08-02-2002, 10:06 AM	#3
bobtodd Registered Member Join Date: Dec 1998 Location: WI, U.S Posts: 255	Yeah...I cruised it around and got the temp up to normal running conditions. __________________ 91 LX - 10.5:1 pistons, ported 289 heads, Ultradyne 588 cam, Cobra upper/lower, MSD, JBA long tube headers, Flowmaster, Richmond 4:10, roll cage, monster tach...FUN!! 95 SHO - K&N filter

08-02-2002, 10:12 AM	#4
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Then you need to replace the ECT (Engine Coolant Temp sensor). You also need to set your TPS. After doing both of those, reset the ECM by disconnecting the neg battery cable, then turning on the headlight switch for 10 minutes, then turn it off, and reconnect the battery cable. Go for a 20 minute test drive, come back, and run KOEO codes again. Take care, ~Chris __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

08-02-2002, 10:35 AM	#5
bobtodd Registered Member Join Date: Dec 1998 Location: WI, U.S Posts: 255	I forgot to mention that I put in an aftermarket temp. gauge. Is that why that would pop up? I guess I didnt realize what the ECT was. As far as the TPS, I went out and checked it again. With the ignition on and the engine off, I was still getting readings of .7's I did see a .8 when the tps was cranked over as far as it would go...and this is with the front screw out to be able to get it over that far. I had put the old TPS back in and pulled some of the insulation on the green wire so I know I was getting accurate readings. Do you think that both TPS's could be bad? I just bought the one. What else could cause such low numbers? __________________ 91 LX - 10.5:1 pistons, ported 289 heads, Ultradyne 588 cam, Cobra upper/lower, MSD, JBA long tube headers, Flowmaster, Richmond 4:10, roll cage, monster tach...FUN!! 95 SHO - K&N filter

08-02-2002, 11:55 AM	#6
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Where did you install the sending unit for your temp gauge? What does your TPS read at WOT? __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

08-02-2002, 12:11 PM	#7
bobtodd Registered Member Join Date: Dec 1998 Location: WI, U.S Posts: 255	I am guessing it's where the ECT was....on top of the lower part of the intake. Should I have used some sort of T so both sensors are hooked up? I was just wondering if my stock gauges were accurate so I installed a cheap aftermarket gauge. SHould I reinstall the stock sensor when pulling the codes? Also, how can you tell if your O2 sensors are bad? Is there any way by looking at them or a way to test them? I've never replaced O2 sensors before but plan on taking them out today and checking them over. Thanks for the help PKRWUD! I've been searching and looking over old posts and it looks like you definatley know your stuff!! __________________ 91 LX - 10.5:1 pistons, ported 289 heads, Ultradyne 588 cam, Cobra upper/lower, MSD, JBA long tube headers, Flowmaster, Richmond 4:10, roll cage, monster tach...FUN!! 95 SHO - K&N filter

08-02-2002, 12:14 PM	#8
bobtodd Registered Member Join Date: Dec 1998 Location: WI, U.S Posts: 255	Oh yeah...I never did check my TPS at wide open throttle. I'll try that out too and let you knw. I've got to bring my car to my parents house now to work on it...GRRR The manager at the apartments I live at walked past my garage when I was out there and basically told me "there is no working on cars in these garages!!" All I was doing was checking my TPS....sheesh. Anyhow, I'll check some things out and get back to you. __________________ 91 LX - 10.5:1 pistons, ported 289 heads, Ultradyne 588 cam, Cobra upper/lower, MSD, JBA long tube headers, Flowmaster, Richmond 4:10, roll cage, monster tach...FUN!! 95 SHO - K&N filter

08-02-2002, 12:22 PM	#9
1hot5.0 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 172	I hate it when apartment managers come by and think that they can run your life. So what if you were working on your car? You have a right to. Anyways, it sounds to me also like you need to adjust your tps sensor. Also, you may want to check all of your vacuum lines. Hope everything gets fixed soon. __________________ 91 Mustang LX 5.0 Convertible AOD Mdifications: K&N filter, Mac Catback, BBK aluminum u/d pulleys.

08-02-2002, 01:30 PM	#10
bobtodd Registered Member Join Date: Dec 1998 Location: WI, U.S Posts: 255	Me too!!...thanks!! __________________ 91 LX - 10.5:1 pistons, ported 289 heads, Ultradyne 588 cam, Cobra upper/lower, MSD, JBA long tube headers, Flowmaster, Richmond 4:10, roll cage, monster tach...FUN!! 95 SHO - K&N filter

08-02-2002, 03:18 PM	#12
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	Oh, BTW, leave your O2 sensors alone for now. You can replace them if you want to, but I wouldn't worry about it just yet. Take care, ~Chris __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

08-02-2002, 04:23 PM	#13
bobtodd Registered Member Join Date: Dec 1998 Location: WI, U.S Posts: 255	DOh!!...looks like I took off the wrong one!! I guess I'll be putting that back in. It's a good thing there is such a thing as Mustangworks with knowledgable people like yourself helping me out. I unplugged my ten pin connectors and put dielectric on all the pins. Here's what is a mystery to me...I was down under the car looking at my O2 sensors and they weren't even plugged in. Both wires coming off of the sensors came to a "Y" which came into a loom of wires which had a plug at the end of it. Hmmm....I looked around for a connector to the fit the plug and I found one over close to the mass air sensor...it fit! Well, I start the car up and it sounds waaay better. Like when I first bought. You rev it and the R's shoot up the way the should and it has that "mean" sound to it. I took it for a spin and I'm still not satisfied with how it ran. Still doesnt have that pull to it that it use to. When I get back to my apartment I am going to check the timing and make sure thats where it needs to be. I still cant get my TPS to read .9's. Is there anything before the TPS that could cause low voltage readings like that? I am hoping that once I can figure out my TPS problems my car may be running the way it should. I still want to get a FP gauge so I can check on that. I guess my next step is to get that temp sensor back on the engine. Well, I need to get scootin. Let me know if anything else comes to mind. Thanks for help!! __________________ 91 LX - 10.5:1 pistons, ported 289 heads, Ultradyne 588 cam, Cobra upper/lower, MSD, JBA long tube headers, Flowmaster, Richmond 4:10, roll cage, monster tach...FUN!! 95 SHO - K&N filter

08-02-2002, 05:42 PM	#14
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	What does the TPS read at WOT? __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

08-02-2002, 06:19 PM	#15
bobtodd Registered Member Join Date: Dec 1998 Location: WI, U.S Posts: 255	How do I check the TPS WOT? Hook the voltmeter up and pull the cable connected to the throttle body? __________________ 91 LX - 10.5:1 pistons, ported 289 heads, Ultradyne 588 cam, Cobra upper/lower, MSD, JBA long tube headers, Flowmaster, Richmond 4:10, roll cage, monster tach...FUN!! 95 SHO - K&N filter

08-02-2002, 07:03 PM	#16
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	DMM pos lead to the green wire. DMM neg lead to the black wire. DMM set to 20 vdc scale. KOEO. Read DMM. This is your TPS reading at idle. Next, rotate the throttle by hand to WOT. Read DMM. This is your TPS setting at WOT. Post the results. Take care, ~Chris __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

08-02-2002, 08:24 PM	#17
bobtodd Registered Member Join Date: Dec 1998 Location: WI, U.S Posts: 255	I just bought this tps but I think its messed up too. It's probably a month old, but the first day I bought it I was adjusting it as far to the left as I could get because I was getting a higher reading. In fact I left the front screw out(still keeping it flush with the top of the throttle body). Well, I took it for a test drive, got on it , and the throttle stuck wide open...doh!! Well, looking under the TPS now I see that the plastic teeth are chewed up. It must have been from that little blade that sits underneath it. So would those teeth being messed up give a different result when using the voltmeter? I stuck a sewing pin through the green wire, and a pin through, the black wire. Hooked the two volt meter wires up accordingly, turned the ignition on. After moving the tps side to side, the best reading I could get was a .6. When I would give it WOT, there wasnt much(if any)change in the numbers. SHould they go up or down at WOT? BY the way, I got a new ETC sensor and put that on. The car runs good but still doesnt have the pull I'm looking for..like it did have. Hopefully once this tps problem is solved things will be better. Once again, thank you for the help __________________ 91 LX - 10.5:1 pistons, ported 289 heads, Ultradyne 588 cam, Cobra upper/lower, MSD, JBA long tube headers, Flowmaster, Richmond 4:10, roll cage, monster tach...FUN!! 95 SHO - K&N filter Last edited by bobtodd; 08-02-2002 at 09:21 PM..

08-03-2002, 12:21 AM	#18
PKRWUD Junior Member Join Date: Mar 1999 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 8,981	The TPS should read around .9~.95 vdc at idle, and about 4.6~4.8 vdc at WOT. It should increase as you open the throttle. Unplug the TPS from the harness. Remove the TPS. Look at the backside of the TPS, and you will see tangs where a blade could fit (like a screwdriver blade). Look at the end of the throttle shaft where the TPS mounts, and you will see a corresponding blade. Line the two up, and slide the tangs into position over the blade, so the TPS is flush against the TB. Rotate the TPS CLOCKWISE just a little bit, so that the screw holes line up. You will feel the internal spring tightening as you do this. Once the holes are lined up, insert the screws, and snug them down. Be sure not to let go of the TPS until the screws are snug, or the tangs will jump over the blade. Once it's snug, plug it into the harness, and test it again, KOEO, both at idle and at WOT, and see what the readings are. Post the results. Take care, ~Chris __________________ Webmaster: Rice Haters Club Jim Porter Racing Peckerwoods Pit Stop Support Your Local RED & WHITE!

08-03-2002, 08:13 AM	#19
bobtodd Registered Member Join Date: Dec 1998 Location: WI, U.S Posts: 255	So those tangs are suppose to sit right on top of the blade? __________________ 91 LX - 10.5:1 pistons, ported 289 heads, Ultradyne 588 cam, Cobra upper/lower, MSD, JBA long tube headers, Flowmaster, Richmond 4:10, roll cage, monster tach...FUN!! 95 SHO - K&N filter

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