Harmonic balancer question

[TJR]

I noticed that the harmonic balancer has a slight wobble to it (It's barely noticeable). I inspected the inertia ring when I had it off and it looked ok. I don't feel any vibrations when driving the car. Is this something to worry about?



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1989 lx notch
89,000 miles
5-speed, bolt-ons,3.73, TFS TWs, TFS Track Heat, TFS Stage 1 cam

[PKRWUD]

Yes, it is something to worry about. At the very least, it will cause premature bearing failure. You may not feel it, yet, but your engine does.

Take care
~Chris

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Retired Moderator
MustangNet

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[TJR]

What do you think is causing it?

The only two things I can think of are as follows:

1. When I was reinstalling the balancer, it seemed to stop about an 1/16th-1/8th of an inch farther out than when I took it off. You can see it when looking at the pullies, the crank pulley sticks out just a tad farther than the other pulleys. What do you think is causing it to stop short?

2. When I put the new timing chain on, it was a pretty tight fit. Is it possible that the crank sprocket wasn't put on far enough to be perfectly in line with the cam sprocket? Would this cause the vibration? If this is the case would it line itself up as the chain stretches?

I'd like to hear your input on this. I don't really want to ruin my engine.

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1989 lx notch
89,000 miles
5-speed, bolt-ons,3.73, TFS TWs, TFS Track Heat, TFS Stage 1 cam

[PKRWUD]

1. When I was reinstalling the balancer, it seemed to stop about an 1/16th-1/8th of an inch farther out than when I took it off. You can see it when looking at the pullies, the crank pulley sticks out just a tad farther than the other pulleys. What do you think is causing it to stop short?

Are you positive the pullies lined up perfect before? Did you replace the water pump? What did you torque the balancer center bolt to (how many pounds)? Did you try hitting the balancer to get it the rest of the way in (this is often the cause because the weighted part of the balancer has been knocked off center slightly at one point)(for future reference, NEVER hit the balancer while trying to install it)? Did you use a new key on the crank, or the same one as before? Did you coat the inside of the balancer (where it rides on the crank) with anti-seize before installation? If you did the above, and are sure the balancer is sticking out more than before, the only possibility is that the crank gear in your timing set is thicker than the one it replaced. You should be able to see a wear mark on the balancer where it enters the seal if it's sticking out more than before.

2. When I put the new timing chain on, it was a pretty tight fit. Is it possible that the crank sprocket wasn't put on far enough to be perfectly in line with the cam sprocket? Would this cause the vibration? If this is the case would it line itself up as the chain stretches?

Usually, the crank sprocket settles in when you tighten down the cam gear bolt. If it doesn't, it will seat fully when you tighten the balancer bolt. What you need to determine is if the balancer itself is bent. The easiest way to do this is to get to a position where you can see both the outside of the balancer (the weighted end) and the shaft of the balancer, where it goes into the seal. Sometimes this can only be seen from underneath. Safely set up the car so you can observe both points on the balancer, and start the engine. Observe the shaft of the balancer and see if it wobbles with the rest of the balancer. If the shaft of the balancer does not wobble while the weighted part of it does, replace the balancer. If both the shaft and the weighted end of the balancer wobble, either the crank snout is bent, or the balancer has too much wear, and is cocked on the crank. Try loosening the balancer to crankshaft bolt (with no belts attached) and see if it wobbles by hand. If it does, replace it. If not, remove the balancer and place it on a solid, flat surface so the pulley mating surface is facing up. With a straight edge or an adjustable square, measure the exact distance from the balancer edge to the surface the balancer is sitting on, at four equally spaced points on the balancer (ie: 12 o'clock, 3, 6 and 9 o'clock). If they differ, replace the balancer. If they are the same, inspect the crank snout and key, and make sure there is no build up on them. Apply anti-seize to the snout and the balancer, and reinstall everything. Start it and check for a wobble. If no wobble, it's fixed. If it does wobble, you may have a bent crank snout. Remove the balancer again, disable the ignition system, and have someone crank the engine over while watching the crank snout. If it appears to wobble, you need to rebuild the bottom end. If it doesn't, find someone with a dial indicator and a magnetic base. Mount it to the engine with the dial tip touching the crank snout, install the balancer bolt and crank the engine over by hand. Watch for any change on the dial indicator.

Take care
~Chris


------------------
Retired Moderator
MustangNet

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[This message has been edited by PKRWUD (edited 09-16-2001).]

[TJR]

Are you positive the pullies lined up perfect before?

I'm pretty sure they did.

Did you replace the water pump?

Yes, it was an Advance Auto Parts stock replacement. It had been sitting in my garage for a year now, so I decided to throw it on.

What did you torque the balancer center bolt to (how many pounds)?

I believe it was 80 ft/lbs. I went by the spec listed in my Haynes manual.

Did you try hitting the balancer to get it the rest of the way in (this is often the cause because the weighted part of the balancer has been knocked off center slightly at one point)(for future reference, NEVER hit the balancer while trying to install it)?

No, I have a balancer puller/installer tool that I used to remove/install it. I got it from Summit racing.

Did you use a new key on the crank, or the same one as before?

I used a completely new timing set. I don't remember the brand off the top of my head, but it is a 9 keyway double roller.

Did you coat the inside of the balancer (where it rides on the crank) with anti-seize before installation?

No, I put a tiny amount of oil on it.

If you did the above, and are sure the balancer is sticking out more than before, the only possibility is that the crank gear in your timing set is thicker than the one it replaced. You should be able to see a wear mark on the balancer where it enters the seal if it's sticking out more than before.

I can see a wear mark on the balancer. It's about a 1/16-1/8 of an inch wide. I can tell that it is not on as far as it was when I took it off.

Does it hurt anything if the new crank gear is slightly wider than the stock one?

I'll check all that stuff you mentioned in the second part. I hope the crank snout isn't bent. How hard is it to bend one? Here's the method I used to break the balancer bolt free. I put two bolts directly acrossed from each other in the balancer crank pulley holes. I then wedged a long bar between them and the ground to keep the crank from turning while I broke the bolt free. Is it possible that this method caused damage to the crank and/or the balancer? What's the best way to keep the crank from spinning when trying to break the crank bolt free?

Thanks for your help! I hope I can solve this without having to rebuild my engine.


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1989 lx notch
89,000 miles
5-speed, bolt-ons,3.73, TFS TWs, TFS Track Heat, TFS Stage 1 cam

[Mach 1]

You shouldnt have damaged anything because of your bolt loosening method.

Botton line - If your pullies dont line up, something is wrong and you should have immediately tore it back down to investigate before you started driving the car or running the engine.

Good luck.


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1993 GT/AOD
'93 Mustang GT

[K.C. 5.0]

I had this same problem. What kind of dampener are you using? I bought a fluidampner from Summit and my crank pulley stuck out a little further then the rest of the pulleys. That was the only thing I changed. I tried to put it on several times; it goes on pretty tight then when its almost in position it stops. I put my stock one back on and it goes on fine and everything lines up. I haven't been able to figure out how to get it to work. Let us know if you figure it out.

[PKRWUD]

KC-
Have you stood both balancers next to each other to verify they are the same depth (from the pulley mounting face to the end of the shaft)?

TJR-
Actually, if I'm understanding you correctly, yes, the method you used to remove the balancer bolt could have done some damage, but I doubt it. For future reference, the simplest and safest way to loosen the balancer bolt is as follows: assemble a 1/2" drive breaker bar, 4" extension, and the proper size socket, and put it on the balancer bolt so the breaker bar handle rests on the ground, on the battery side. Disable the ignition system (disconnect the coil), and bump the starter with the key. This works on every type of vehicle I know of, except for Honda's. Their engines rotate backwards (counterclockwise).

Mach 1 is right in that you really should have torn this back down when you realized the balancer was sticking out farther. Then you could compare crank gear thickness.

Remove the balancer. Use a depth gauge, or a narrow aluminum ruler, and measure the distance from the crank gear to the edge of the seal lip, along the snout. Now measure the balancer shaft from the end to the wear mark. If the measurements are the same, the balancer is binding and isn't seating against the gear. If the measurement is different, then the crank gear is fatter than the previous one, and you need to buy an appropriate balancer that is slightly shorter.

Take care
~Chris

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Retired Moderator
MustangNet

My site: JimPorterRacing

RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR

HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

[TJR]

KC- The balancer is stock.

Chris- Do you have a recommendation on a shorter balancer?

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1989 lx notch
89,000 miles
5-speed, bolt-ons,3.73, TFS TWs, TFS Track Heat, TFS Stage 1 cam

[PKRWUD]

No, actually I don't. If the crank gear is fatter than stock, then try contacting the manufacturer of the timing set. Have you measured yet? I really think the problem is either with the balancer binding. Another way you can verify if the balancer is bottoming out on the crank gear is to apply liquid paper pretty thick onto the end of the balancer shaft (where it would contact the crank gear), and re-install the balancer, and torque the balancer bolt down. Then remove it, and inspect the area you applied the liquid paper to. If it bottomed out against the gear, there will be liquid paper on the gear, and some will be missing from the balancer.

Or...

You can just pull the pump and cover off and inspect it straight out. Compare the two crank gears, make sure the gear is seated, try installing the balancer, and see where it's binding, etc.

Take care
~Chris

------------------
Retired Moderator
MustangNet

My site: JimPorterRacing

RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR

HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

[TJR]

Chris, I haven't had the opportunity to pull the balancer off yet. Unfortunately, it's going to have to wait until this Friday. I have a paper due, and a test Thursday night. Most of my spare time will be going towards that. I'll just continue to drive my ugly pickup for now .

Seriously though, I appreciate all the replies I've gotten. I'm going to print this thread out and go down through it when I pull the balancer/timing cover back off. I'll keep you guys updated on what I find.

Thanks again,
TJ

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1989 lx notch
89,000 miles
5-speed, bolt-ons,3.73, TFS TWs, TFS Track Heat, TFS Stage 1 cam

[TJR]

Couple more questions...

Is it necessary to put loc-tite on the cam bolt or thrust plate bolts? If so, which type? (red or blue)

Also, should I coat any of the gaskets (water pump/timing chain cover) with the blue gasket maker or ultra black? I usually just outline the coolant passages, but I've heard that you should never use gasket maker in conjunction with gaskets. Any suggestions?

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1989 lx notch
89,000 miles
5-speed, bolt-ons,3.73, TFS TWs, TFS Track Heat, TFS Stage 1 cam

[John]

Make sure the two bolt hole that no bolts go through on timing cover just above the water jackets are filled with goo. I was cleaning everything up and poked them out, had to pull it apart 3 times 'fore i fingered it out. I put my tube of Black silicone on the holes and squeezed hard . As for no sealer w/ gaskets I used permatex #2 around the timing cover and water pump w/ gaskets. I always use #2 and have never had a prob. Also removed the 2 bolts on back of water pump to pull off the metal plate and gooed that area up also. John

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89 Notch: ASP Pullies,
K&N Air,Transgo shiftkit,Trans. cooler,FMS 3 core , FMS 4:10's, 1.5" cowl, cold air kit, hooker shorties(jet hot coated), O/R H-Pipe, ASP solid mounts, Energy Sus. Trans. Mnt. BBK 70mm TB, MSD 6al, Dual elec. fans, 5.0 Firepower Kit, Scorpion 1.6 RR's, Flowmasters, 73 mm MAF, cobra intake and crower #512 cam,

[TJR]

Thanks John

Does anyone know which loc-tite to use on the cam bolt?

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1989 lx notch
89,000 miles
5-speed, bolt-ons,3.73, TFS TWs, TFS Track Heat, TFS Stage 1 cam

[PKRWUD]

271 (red)

I'm not trying to start an arguement with John, but i can't stand #2. I have had that crap harden and break apart so many times I just stopped using it. It doesn't remain pliable at all. If your gasket surfaces are completely clean, use Gasgacinch on all gaskets. Apply a few drops of oil onto the threads of the water pump bolts when installing.

Take care
~Chris

------------------
Retired Moderator
MustangNet

My site: JimPorterRacing

RACECAR spelled backwards is RACECAR

HEY !!! Are you ASE Certified ??? If you are, ask me about iATN. The best tool you'll ever have, and it's free !!!

[K.C. 5.0]

TJR- yes I have put them side by side and they look like the are the same length.