Need advice on my engine build (top and bottom end). Details inside...

Fox Body · 07-17-2002, 05:24 PM

The Plan
1) 500-600 hp street car
2) '87 carbureted 351W block to be setup for Procharger (carb) D1-SC intercooled blower (running 10-15 lbs of boost). Block will be setup (converted to) for roller cam, etc.
3) SCAT 4340 Forged crank (stock stroke, 3.00" main) with Clevite bearings, Eagle forged rods, Ross forged pistons (file cut rings)
4) Desired compression: 8.5:1 - 8.8:1.
5) TFS Track Heat cylinder heads (61 cc comb. chamb.) (Fel-Pro 1011-2 head gaskets)
6) roller rockers, pushrods, lifters, and cam. Double roller timing chain (I would like to buy everything in #6 from TFS)
7) Edelbrock Performer RPM intake
8) If I missed something, forgive me.

Issues
---- I talked to someone at SCAT Crankshafts and they told me in order to keep the compression ~8.7:1, I would have to get custom 24cc dish pistons if I wanted to match with the TFS heads and this would take 3-4 weeks.
---- Someone suggested CNC porting of the heads. Is that even worth the money considering the intake I'd be running?

I really appreciate any intelligent comments concerning this post. Let me know what you guys think. I hope to get this stuff ordered on Friday. I would like to get stage 1 (engine planning) done by Friday. Stage 1, planning. I would like to get to stage 2, ordering the stuff, on Friday. I really want to hear a response on this. Thanks.

Fox Body · 07-18-2002, 04:41 PM

Hmmmm.

13 views, but no comments. I wonder.

Talk to me, guys.

Thanks.

Eric4Nitrous · 07-18-2002, 06:24 PM

The guys were primarily right about keeping the 8.7:1 compression that you desired that you would indeed need 24cc pistons. CNC porting can be very effective. Depends on combo. I would highly suggest it though for your combo. Sounds like your on your way to a stout street car. Good luck with it. Keep us posted

Eric

Fox Body · 07-22-2002, 06:39 PM

Thanks for the reply RadicalGT. Appreciate it.

I think the CNC porting on the exhaust side will do the most good.

Stroked408 · 07-22-2002, 07:25 PM

Fox Body,
if you have not gotten the heads yet,and you want a CNC port,why not just get the AFR heads? They come with a CNC port,and they have definitely proven their weight in gold,mind you I am not a fan of the AFR,but if you are looking for a good head with CNC port just start with an AFR head.

500-600hp carburetted? You do not need a blower for that especially with a 351W even a stroked Windsor. It is very obvious you are not concerned about emissions,so just build up a stroked 351W raise the compression up to 10.5 or 11.1 get those AFR heads or a set of TFS High Ports a Victor Jr or Super Victor intake and have at it.

Just my recommendation,but it sounds like a fun combo,and it is definitely different, I like different.

302 LX Eric · 07-23-2002, 08:23 AM

Good to hear that you're going with a forged SCAT crank and H-beams - very nice.

As far as the compression goes, getting ~8.7:1 with the TFS heads at 61 cc's will be nearly impossible w/out a dished piston of some kind. Just some quick reference numbers for you to consider:

61 cc head with a flat top piston = ~ 11.2:1
61 cc head with 29 cc dish piston = ~ 9.1:1

This information was taken from DSS's compression ratio chart for a 357 (overbored 351) and TFS TW heads. Not the exact combo you've got, but darn close. Tom Naegle at DSS can give you a real good idea of where you'll end up depending upon the amount of cc's you dish the pistons.

Obviously, more cc's in the combustion chamber will reduce compression (about a .1 of compression reduction for each additional cc)

Will you be boring the engine? A 357 is nice because you can have the machine shop bore the cylinders and have a nice cross-hatch to have 'brand-new' cylinders that will seal very well. I also recommend upgrading the ring package to the plasma-moly (ductile iron) rings. Excellent sealing for blower motors.

FWIW, my 331 came in at 9.2:1 compression and I'm putting a D-1SC blower on as well (injected car though).

Good luck,
E

Fox Body · 07-23-2002, 05:42 PM

Stroked408.
I have thought about AFRs, but haven't really looked into them, yet. I need to. I haven't bought the heads yet. I will have to look into AFRs. Thanks. I have considered stroking the motor, but decided to take that "different" path. You know when you just got your mind set on an engine combo, it's hard to be talked down from it (unless there is obviously something majorly wrong/stupid with it). I know I also could have gone with a 302 EFI, and supercharge it or put nitrous on it (which in the long run would probably be less troublesome than working with the 351W), or building a high compression 302/351W, but I guess I just really got attached to the blown 351W idea (especially carbureted). It is a not-so-common setup and that makes me want it even more. Thanks for your reply.

302 LX Eric,
The cast crank will supposedly hold if I keep it under 6000 rpm and for my hp range, but considering how much this motor combo is gonna cost compared to the cost of a new forged crank, I'd rather err on the side of safety.

Thanks for the info.

Quote:

Will you be boring the engine? A 357 is nice because you can have the machine shop bore the cylinders and have a nice cross-hatch to have 'brand-new' cylinders that will seal very well. I also recommend upgrading the ring package to the plasma-moly (ductile iron) rings. Excellent sealing for blower motors.

The motor will have to be bored .030 over. I will check into the plasma-moly (ductile iron) rings. I haven't heard of these b4. Hey, thanks for your input as well.

302 LX Eric · 07-24-2002, 08:11 AM

I went with a 4340 Forged Steel crankshaft as well. I know it might be a little overkill, but I really like peace of mind. Plus for an extra $300, it was worth it to me.

Are the TFS Track Heat heads the 'new' version of the 'old' Street Heats? If so, I've heard good things about them. In fact, Bennett Racing is adverstising 3 or 4 different CNC porting programs for them. You may want to give them a call and possibly discuss a custom camshaft too.

Good luck,
E

gau83stang · 07-24-2002, 08:33 PM

I'd definetely look into the AFR heads. They just came out with 225cc heads, but those may be way overkill. I'd say check on the 205cc or maybe the 185cc heads. Also check out the August and September issues of Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords. They did some dyno tests on engines of different power levels, both fuel injected and carbuerated. Some that may interest you may be
the 500hp 408W(10.0:1)504hp@5600pm & 499lbs/ft@4900rpm, the 525hp 392W(10.3:1)536hp@6000rpm & 507lbs/ft@5100rpm. Both are carbuerated. Yeah these are strokers and I know you said you didn't want to do a stroker, but I'm pretty sure you could do one with a blower friendly compression ratio. Anyways just trying to help, so good luck.

07-17-2002, 05:24 PM	#1
Fox Body Mustang Maniac Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: GA, U.S.A Posts: 2,266	Need advice on my engine build (top and bottom end). Details inside... The Plan 1) 500-600 hp street car 2) '87 carbureted 351W block to be setup for Procharger (carb) D1-SC intercooled blower (running 10-15 lbs of boost). Block will be setup (converted to) for roller cam, etc. 3) SCAT 4340 Forged crank (stock stroke, 3.00" main) with Clevite bearings, Eagle forged rods, Ross forged pistons (file cut rings) 4) Desired compression: 8.5:1 - 8.8:1. 5) TFS Track Heat cylinder heads (61 cc comb. chamb.) (Fel-Pro 1011-2 head gaskets) 6) roller rockers, pushrods, lifters, and cam. Double roller timing chain (I would like to buy everything in #6 from TFS) 7) Edelbrock Performer RPM intake 8) If I missed something, forgive me. Issues ---- I talked to someone at SCAT Crankshafts and they told me in order to keep the compression ~8.7:1, I would have to get custom 24cc dish pistons if I wanted to match with the TFS heads and this would take 3-4 weeks. ---- Someone suggested CNC porting of the heads. Is that even worth the money considering the intake I'd be running? I really appreciate any intelligent comments concerning this post. Let me know what you guys think. I hope to get this stuff ordered on Friday. I would like to get stage 1 (engine planning) done by Friday. Stage 1, planning. I would like to get to stage 2, ordering the stuff, on Friday. I really want to hear a response on this. Thanks. __________________ 351W-powered 1979 Ford Mustang Ghia notchback '79 Video @ Idle Stock 5.8L under 4" cowl 'glass hood, C4 w/ Transgo shift kit, Holley 750 cfm, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake; Fluidyne Al radiator, Flexalite 175 electric fan, 1 5/8" MAC shorty headers, FRPP Al driveshaft; S&W 6-point cage; 2.5" Off road H-pipe, 2-chamber Flowmasters, 8.8" Rear w/ 3.55s; Weld wheels (15x6;15x8), Front: 225/60/15, Rear: 275/50/15 Nitto NT 555R Drag Radials; 14 x 4” K&N X-stream air filter. '92 GT (5-speed) Small In Car Video Stock 5.0L, 2-chamber Flowmasters, MAC CAI, Tri-Ax, Al pedals... "Red, thou art my companion. Hasten now your quickened metamorphosis to Green that I may conquer all who dare abide there beside me. May they be left thither behind burnt black." ---Fox Body

07-18-2002, 04:41 PM	#2
Fox Body Mustang Maniac Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: GA, U.S.A Posts: 2,266	Hmmmm. 13 views, but no comments. I wonder. Talk to me, guys. Thanks. __________________ 351W-powered 1979 Ford Mustang Ghia notchback '79 Video @ Idle Stock 5.8L under 4" cowl 'glass hood, C4 w/ Transgo shift kit, Holley 750 cfm, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake; Fluidyne Al radiator, Flexalite 175 electric fan, 1 5/8" MAC shorty headers, FRPP Al driveshaft; S&W 6-point cage; 2.5" Off road H-pipe, 2-chamber Flowmasters, 8.8" Rear w/ 3.55s; Weld wheels (15x6;15x8), Front: 225/60/15, Rear: 275/50/15 Nitto NT 555R Drag Radials; 14 x 4” K&N X-stream air filter. '92 GT (5-speed) Small In Car Video Stock 5.0L, 2-chamber Flowmasters, MAC CAI, Tri-Ax, Al pedals... "Red, thou art my companion. Hasten now your quickened metamorphosis to Green that I may conquer all who dare abide there beside me. May they be left thither behind burnt black." ---Fox Body

07-18-2002, 06:24 PM	#3
Eric4Nitrous Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Va Posts: 1,122	The guys were primarily right about keeping the 8.7:1 compression that you desired that you would indeed need 24cc pistons. CNC porting can be very effective. Depends on combo. I would highly suggest it though for your combo. Sounds like your on your way to a stout street car. Good luck with it. Keep us posted Eric __________________ 68 Camaro Gene Fulton 632ci Two stages of Jug 8.41 164mph Rockingham 1-26-03

07-22-2002, 06:39 PM	#4
Fox Body Mustang Maniac Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: GA, U.S.A Posts: 2,266	Thanks for the reply RadicalGT. Appreciate it. I think the CNC porting on the exhaust side will do the most good. __________________ 351W-powered 1979 Ford Mustang Ghia notchback '79 Video @ Idle Stock 5.8L under 4" cowl 'glass hood, C4 w/ Transgo shift kit, Holley 750 cfm, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake; Fluidyne Al radiator, Flexalite 175 electric fan, 1 5/8" MAC shorty headers, FRPP Al driveshaft; S&W 6-point cage; 2.5" Off road H-pipe, 2-chamber Flowmasters, 8.8" Rear w/ 3.55s; Weld wheels (15x6;15x8), Front: 225/60/15, Rear: 275/50/15 Nitto NT 555R Drag Radials; 14 x 4” K&N X-stream air filter. '92 GT (5-speed) Small In Car Video Stock 5.0L, 2-chamber Flowmasters, MAC CAI, Tri-Ax, Al pedals... "Red, thou art my companion. Hasten now your quickened metamorphosis to Green that I may conquer all who dare abide there beside me. May they be left thither behind burnt black." ---Fox Body

07-22-2002, 07:25 PM	#5
Stroked408 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southwest Posts: 131	Heads Fox Body, if you have not gotten the heads yet,and you want a CNC port,why not just get the AFR heads? They come with a CNC port,and they have definitely proven their weight in gold,mind you I am not a fan of the AFR,but if you are looking for a good head with CNC port just start with an AFR head. 500-600hp carburetted? You do not need a blower for that especially with a 351W even a stroked Windsor. It is very obvious you are not concerned about emissions,so just build up a stroked 351W raise the compression up to 10.5 or 11.1 get those AFR heads or a set of TFS High Ports a Victor Jr or Super Victor intake and have at it. Just my recommendation,but it sounds like a fun combo,and it is definitely different, I like different. __________________ Deeper,Harder,Faster Stage Deeper Launch Harder Go Faster

07-23-2002, 08:23 AM	#6
302 LX Eric or '331 LX Eric' Join Date: Jan 1999 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 2,142	Good to hear that you're going with a forged SCAT crank and H-beams - very nice. As far as the compression goes, getting ~8.7:1 with the TFS heads at 61 cc's will be nearly impossible w/out a dished piston of some kind. Just some quick reference numbers for you to consider: 61 cc head with a flat top piston = ~ 11.2:1 61 cc head with 29 cc dish piston = ~ 9.1:1 This information was taken from DSS's compression ratio chart for a 357 (overbored 351) and TFS TW heads. Not the exact combo you've got, but darn close. Tom Naegle at DSS can give you a real good idea of where you'll end up depending upon the amount of cc's you dish the pistons. Obviously, more cc's in the combustion chamber will reduce compression (about a .1 of compression reduction for each additional cc) Will you be boring the engine? A 357 is nice because you can have the machine shop bore the cylinders and have a nice cross-hatch to have 'brand-new' cylinders that will seal very well. I also recommend upgrading the ring package to the plasma-moly (ductile iron) rings. Excellent sealing for blower motors. FWIW, my 331 came in at 9.2:1 compression and I'm putting a D-1SC blower on as well (injected car though). Good luck, E __________________ 1991 5.0 LX Coupe - 40,750 miles 331 cu. in. / Tremec 3550 / BFG Drag Radials 12.22 @ 114.31 mph - w/1.89 60'

07-24-2002, 08:11 AM	#8
302 LX Eric or '331 LX Eric' Join Date: Jan 1999 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 2,142	I went with a 4340 Forged Steel crankshaft as well. I know it might be a little overkill, but I really like peace of mind. Plus for an extra $300, it was worth it to me. Are the TFS Track Heat heads the 'new' version of the 'old' Street Heats? If so, I've heard good things about them. In fact, Bennett Racing is adverstising 3 or 4 different CNC porting programs for them. You may want to give them a call and possibly discuss a custom camshaft too. Good luck, E __________________ 1991 5.0 LX Coupe - 40,750 miles 331 cu. in. / Tremec 3550 / BFG Drag Radials 12.22 @ 114.31 mph - w/1.89 60'

07-24-2002, 08:33 PM	#9
gau83stang Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Fayetteville, NC Posts: 7	I'd definetely look into the AFR heads. They just came out with 225cc heads, but those may be way overkill. I'd say check on the 205cc or maybe the 185cc heads. Also check out the August and September issues of Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords. They did some dyno tests on engines of different power levels, both fuel injected and carbuerated. Some that may interest you may be the 500hp 408W(10.0:1)504hp@5600pm & 499lbs/ft@4900rpm, the 525hp 392W(10.3:1)536hp@6000rpm & 507lbs/ft@5100rpm. Both are carbuerated. Yeah these are strokers and I know you said you didn't want to do a stroker, but I'm pretty sure you could do one with a blower friendly compression ratio. Anyways just trying to help, so good luck.